New HD100 Clips 9-5-05

[Barry Green]

Pre-Nate, indeed -- Nate, those clips were extremely clean. Probably some of the best HDV footage I've seen. Very impressive, and really worked well with the stock lens too! If you remember -- were these mainly shot wide-angle?

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

If you remember -- were these mainly shot wide-angle?

I tend to stay wide unless I have a reason to punch in. The bus-stop shot was full wide. The mega-tilt to the street below was full wide, the generic street scene with cars driving away was prob 40mm, Disney hall shot prob started at about 60mm and went to full wide.

[Michael Maier]

I just watched the clips again, and the more I see them, the more I like them. Great job Nate.

[Michael Maier]

As you say yourself Barry, and as already put by others, you don't know what tapes have been used in the camera before you shot. It doesn't matter you used a new tape. I'm 100% sure several different brands were used and the heads got guped up with different tapes lubricants. Do the same with a DVX100, XL2 or PD170 and tell me they won't behave the same way, maybe even worse. You just can't compare a trade show unit, which has been used and abused, to a normal running unit. I rather go by Nate's experience, who I know is using the camera the way it should be used in normal shooting conditions, than go by some bad moments had in a trade show with a public unit. But that's just me.

I say myth, because I remember in the early days of DV, all the pros, and also sony, in a desperate effort to protect their higher end line, were saying DV wasn't good enough because it had lots of dropouts and etc. Even Panasonic was preaching how plain DV wasn’t good enough, because it wasn’t as robust as DVCPRO etc. Today, DV is used for professional work in large scale. Where did the DV dropout myth go?

I hear the HDV codec is less prone to dropouts than DV. The thing is when it happens, it's uglier, because of GOP. But it hasn't stopped DV and it will sure not stop HDV, specially ProHD, which has been proving to be a better solution. How many professionals out there shoot DV with a direct to disk solution? I would say nowhere close to 30%. If HDV is safer, I'm sure even more people will take the "risk". As many put it, just use high grade tape rather than the 5 tapes for a dollar deals one finds around.

Bottom line is, the HD100 is a winner IMO and as already pointed out, the HVX200 will sure have a run for it's money. Specially that it can't shoot HD for under 6k. I think they both have desirable features need in the field. One will just have to pick the ones he needs most. I'm actually really surprised with the HD100. I didn't expect it would be that good, based of the JVC HD1. But what I have seen from it, proves me so wrong.

The mini35 test, had the excuse of had used a $60,000 lens, which is beyond reach of the large majority of users for this camera. But Nate’s test is just straight out the box with the stock lens. It looks great! I know Nate knows what he’s doing, but it just proves the camera is a winner

[Werner Wesp]

Nate, was the white clip on 100 or 108?

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Werner Wesp

Nate, was the white clip on 100 or 108?

108, with a knee of 80.

[Werner Wesp]

Aha, no trust in the auto-knee? or just because of the danger with the reflecting surfaces?

Gain on 0 dB?

[Nate Weaver]

Originally Posted by Werner Wesp

Aha, no trust in the auto-knee? or just because of the danger with the reflecting surfaces?

Gain on 0 dB?

Kinda. At least in manual I have an idea of what I THINK it should be doing...flattening out the top of the curve. Auto? Who knows what that means. Also for consistency's sake.

Yes, 0db gain.

[Werner Wesp]

I think that it is the best choice for the shot with the bus. I might have used the auto-knee with the big tilt-shot, but it looks great like this also...

Too bad you can't choose auto-knee with a button, instead of with a manu-setting...

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Michael Maier

You just can't compare a trade show unit, which has been used and abused, to a normal running unit. I rather go by Nate's experience, who I know is using the camera the way it should be used in normal shooting conditions, than go by some bad moments had in a trade show with a public unit. But that's just me.

I agree. Which is why I said what I said. But the point was not whether the camera had been used properly, etc., but to point out that HDV is still susceptible, and the only "myth" going on is that ProHD is "more resistant" to dropouts than DV. That's a silly (and even outrageous) claim. The only way to improve dropout "resistance" is by using a better tape. Dropouts are not dependent on the format, or on any shuffling of tracks, etc. Dropouts happen because there's a fault with the tape -- either a speck of dust, or something flakes off the tape, etc. The only thing ProHD could try to do would be to minimize the impact of a dropout, but they cannot in any way minimize the occurrence of dropouts.

And as the tape I showed demonstrated, ProHD does indeed appear to handle dropouts differently. On the Sony, each of those dropouts would have resulted in a half-second freeze-up. On the JVC, it just scragged portions of the picture.

I say myth, because I remember in the early days of DV, all the pros, and also sony, in a desperate effort to protect their higher end line, were saying DV wasn't good enough because it had lots of dropouts and etc.

When did that become a "myth", or a "desperate effort"? It's the truth. DV is a dropout-prone format. I get an average of three glitches per tape. It's not an overwhelming amount, but it's irritating and I can well understand why the news business is now 70% DVCPRO (and not DV). For average users that may not be much, but for pros who are shooting news (inherently a one-take business) dropouts are extremely irritating. Which is why Sony and Panasonic both immediately developed alternate formats to reduce dropout occurrence.

Today, DV is used for professional work in large scale. Where did the DV dropout myth go?

The "myth" I can't speak for, but the dropout reality is with us every bit as much as it always was. Moreso as a camera ages, too (my brand-new camera rarely had a dropout in the early days, but showed more as the hours racked up on the heads). Just shot a short film in the desert last February, and the additional factor of wind & desert meant that we got an average of two or three dropouts PER MINUTE. (never shoot in the desert without some sort of rain cover or something!) Every take we'd have to stop, rewind, pand play back, just to make sure there were no dropouts. Also, I used to shoot a 28-minute local television show in three 9-minute takes, and I could count on having to fix at least a couple of dropouts in every episode. Usually little tiny "sparkly" dropouts, usually not the big ugly "venetian blind" dropouts.

Dropouts are a reality. Their frequency can be mitigated somewhat by using the same brand of tape, high-quality tape, cleaning the heads, etc. But they do happen. It's the nature of the format (and it's a primary reason DVCAM and DVCPRO were developed). And dropouts affect HDV a lot more significantly than they do DV.

I hear the HDV codec is less prone to dropouts than DV.

Ah, now there's the myth! That's patently impossible. Dropouts happen because of the tape, not the codec that's written on the tape.

What JVC has done is scramble the data around on the tape, so they can minimize the impact of a dropout AS COMPARED TO SONY's FORMAT. A Sony dropout seizes the entire GOP. A JVC dropout scrags a portion of the picture (and occasionally seizes a whole GOP, I've seen that too). But in both cases the dropouts are far more destructive to the picture than they are in DV. Look at the clips I posted again -- every dropout is a significant scrag that lasts for multiple frames. That's the nature of having a GOP-based codec -- if something gets scragged, it's scragged for the duration of the GOP and there's *no way* around that. Sony drops the whole GOP, JVC just lets the scrag play through, but it happens. With DV, that dropout may have glitched a little bit of one frame. With HDV, it's going to affect an entire GOP, each and every time. Dropouts are always uglier on HDV than they would have been on DV.

How many professionals out there shoot DV with a direct to disk solution?

Don't know. But I do know that more of us are doing so. I have DV Rack on every shoot I do now. Obviously not possible for ENG work, but for anything where there's a "video village", I shoot on DV Rack every time. And I won't be caught without the FireStore on the HD100 either. Others may have different levels of tolerance, but one thing is inescapable: users *will* get hit with dropouts. Some will find the risk acceptable. I'm tired of it, I don't find it acceptable.

If HDV is safer, I'm sure even more people will take the "risk". As many put it, just use high grade tape rather than the 5 tapes for a dollar deals one finds around.

Anyone using cheap tapes, especially with HDV, is just asking for it. There's a reason Sony introduced $25 "HDV" tapes! If you're going to shoot on tape, the only thing you can do to minimize dropouts is to use better tape.

Look, all I'm saying is that dropouts do happen. Pretending they don't serves no valid purpose. They do happen, if you're recording to tape they will happen, and that doesn't mean the camera won't succeed, it just means that it's a risk-management game you have to play. I would think that anyone who values their footage (and, frankly, if you don't value your footage, what are you doing shooting on high-def?) would want to be aware of what the risks are, and what the options are for minimizing that risk.

For some people, the cost savings of using a $3 tape will be worth whatever dropouts they get (that ain't me, but I know that a lot of people will choose that option). For some, using a $5 tape will provide all the margin of safety they think they'll need (and I wish them well). For others, using the $18-$25 HDV tape will be what they think they need to do. For guys like me, with zero tolerance for scragged footage, that means a backup recording mechanism (HDV Rack or DR-HD100). Pick your level of risk and your strategy of management and go forward. But do so with your eyes open, recognizing the very real issue of dropouts and their more-serious impact on HDV footage. Don't cling to the false notion that dropouts are a "myth", or you'll be hating life when you get hit with 'em.

[Werner Wesp]

Dropouts can happen and it is in no way related to the format, but the tape (basicly). Very true.

Some things need to be said.

1) from personal experience: experiencing 3 dropouts per tape is an awful lot. Since the days I use an XL1 I never had more than 1 dropout per 3 or (perhaps) 2 tapes... (that's a factor 6 to 9 less!)

2) It is no myth that HDV is more resistant to dropouts than DV. Dropouts are caused by bad patches of tape, or dust or worn heads - not related to the format. BUT, HDV writes the image data in different places on the tape, making a difference whether or not the dropout will affect the image or can still be corrected by the error-correction. The dropouts might be there, but not visible to the way it is written to tape and then corrected if needed.
It is a reality that HDV is somewhat robust against *small* dropouts. Mind you, a big dropout will eat a big enough patch on the tape to make it impossible to compensate, so HDV isn't any more robust angainst serious dropouts then DV - just the very small ones.

3) I can't back Barry more on this: The ProHD format can't avoid any more dropouts than sony's standard HDV, but it handles them better apparently - and that is what it is all about, sometimes...

[Werner Wesp]

Originally Posted by Barry Green

Every take we'd have to stop, rewind, pand play back, just to make sure there were no dropouts.

That may cause dropouts too... (especially in the desert...)

[Mark Grant]

The ProHD format can't avoid any more dropouts than sony's standard HDV

I don't know how ProHD recording works, but if it's 19Mbps it potentially has an extra 6Mbps they can use for error correction to fix dropouts. So in theory it could be significantly better than 1080i at handling dropouts.

I get an average of three glitches per tape.

Wow. I'm upset if I get a single noticeable glitch on a DV tape... the only time I usually see them is for a minute or two after changing tape brands.

[Barry Green]

Originally Posted by Mark Grant

I don't know how ProHD recording works, but if it's 19Mbps it potentially has an extra 6Mbps they can use for error correction to fix dropouts. So in theory it could be significantly better than 1080i at handling dropouts.

Nope. That area is unused. They have plans to someday add uncompressed audio to that section, but right now it's not used at all.

Wow. I'm upset if I get a single noticeable glitch on a DV tape... the only time I usually see them is for a minute or two after changing tape brands.

Me too. But then again, I've met people who claim they don't get any dropouts, and I can point them out to them. They just don't see the little one-frame sparklies. I see 'em all the time and it drives me batty. I see on on broadcast television shows too, on small cable networks like TLC and HGTV.

[Barry Green]

Hey Chris, this thread should probably be split out -- it's taken a significant turn away from Nate's excellent clips and we've drifted off onto a dropout tangent... probably should be reorganized to keep Nate's original thread on-topic.