Raw uncompressed component signal? at DVinfo.net

Luis Reggiardo · August 17th, 2005, 09:00 AM

Does anybody know if the once-announced "Live uncompressed 720P signal through component" (4:2:2?) is available on the final production models?

If so, may anyone post RAW framgrabs from that signal? Can you get 24P or just 50/60?

And about the HD-SDI needed converter: What would be the most affordable option? (Miranda HD is around 4.000)

Thx!
L

Barry Green · August 17th, 2005, 11:49 AM

According to the general manager of product development for JVC, yes the raw uncompressed signal is available. If I'm not mistaken, he may have intimated that it's actually the equivalent of 4:4:4.

An HD-SDI converter is the start of the process. Then you'll need a computer with a high-speed bus (PCI 133mhz isn't fast enough to handle uncompressed HD) and a RAID of about 8 hard disks, and enough storage space to handle a data rate of somewhere around 5 seconds per gigabyte. That's not a very common configuration, so I doubt we're going to see end users capturing the uncompressed HD anytime soon.

Ian E. Pearson · August 17th, 2005, 11:14 PM

Capturing an uncompressed signal is probably unreasonable for most setups. If you would like to get a less compressed signal from this camera you might wanna take a look at Cinefrom Prospect HD. It looks like one of the best options if you are trying to convert the analog out to HD SDI and capture from that.

Mouayed Zabtia · August 18th, 2005, 03:04 AM

I think canopus have product call EDIUS NX for HDV , this product can transfer HD format to SD real time also can convert NTSC format to pal that mean you can work with HDV 30 or 60 even 24 , it will convert to any format you want it , the problem for this product as I think need very high speed specification computer , you can vest canopus site
www.justedit.com

Joe Carney · August 18th, 2005, 11:48 AM

Just to chime in ...don't the BlackMagic Design boards/codecs have the option to convert to a lossless compression scheme? If so, then you would still need an affordable analog to sdi converter. With the BMD, couldn't you get away with SATA Raid instead of scsi? Much more affordable, though I would still recomend getting a mobo with at least 2 pci express slots.

Anyone here have a BMD setup?

Michael Maier · August 18th, 2005, 12:01 PM

Blackmagic has a great analog/HD-SDI converter which sells for $1500. That, plus a $600 HD card also from them, and you are good to go.

Thomas Smet · August 21st, 2005, 09:16 AM

Actually the Blackmagic Multibridge converter for HD is $2000.00. The $1500.00 converter is for SD only.

Tommy James · August 21st, 2005, 09:31 AM

Why would anyone want to record the raw uncompressed signal of the camera ? That would be very inefficient. If 720p60 is what you are after then you convert the uncompressed analog signal to digital using an HD-SDI converter then you run that signal through an MPEG-2 encoder then you record the compressed MPEG-2 transport stream. Unfortunately a JVC MPEG-2 encoder costs 30,000 bucks so hopefully there will be a cheaper solution.

Kevin Dooley · August 21st, 2005, 09:41 AM

There is a cheaper solution (albeit not that much cheaper). You can run it to a DVCPRO HD deck...there's one out for $21,000. Or, rent a deck for whatever your format of choice is when you need the 720p60. Or, heck, capture it on a computer in a some type of codec instead of uncompressed... like DVCPRO HD or HDCAM, or even a lossless codec from Lumiere or Cineform.

Jacques Mersereau · August 21st, 2005, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy James

Why would anyone want to record the raw uncompressed signal of the camera ? That would be very inefficient.

Higher quality is the answer. Yes, capturing the uncompressed signal
means dealing with huge data rates and currently associated high costs, but
Hollywood is has its reasons for choosing this path when shooting
digitally.

1) Sharper images (very important when projecting on the big screen).
2) Richer color (and the ability to go further with 'color correction').
3) Better contrast (Information normally lost in compression is kept).
4) No macroblocks, jaggies or other compression issues.
5) Better compositing.
6) Better for blue/green screen.

As hard drive speed and storage size increase this "inefficiency",
as you call it, will become less of an issue. The fact is that
when you have an HD camera that can provide uncompressed quality
for under $6K, there should be enough left in your budget to purchase
the capture/storage solution that makes uncompressed HD affordable.
Certainly, those who want superb quality should be able
to afford an AJA Analog HD-HDSDI converter
($1500) or the Blackmagic-design.com system ($3500) and rent an HD deck.

Michael Maier · August 21st, 2005, 03:37 PM

I do think it's unresonable to think one can shoot a whole feature that way. but for greenscreen work, it's very doable, according to many. You need a component to HD-SDi converter and a HD-SDI capturing card like the $600 decklink. Then you can capture it as DVCPRO-HD or some other HD 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 codec. You need a very fast machine and fast and enough storage. I think with 5-6k you can have the set up for it.
Component to HD-SDi converter $1,500
Decklink HD $600
Super fast PC self built + 8 drive RAID $4000 (box only, but you should have a monitor and the rest)

This is a rough estimate. But should be pretty close. Besides, Blackmagic is coming out with a card which does it all, convert and capture. It might be chaper than the 2 separate solutions.

August 17th, 2005, 09:00 AM	#1
Luis Reggiardo Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 37	Raw uncompressed component signal? Does anybody know if the once-announced "Live uncompressed 720P signal through component" (4:2:2?) is available on the final production models? If so, may anyone post RAW framgrabs from that signal? Can you get 24P or just 50/60? And about the HD-SDI needed converter: What would be the most affordable option? (Miranda HD is around 4.000) Thx! L __________________ Luis Buenos Aires, Argentina Film Student

August 21st, 2005, 09:41 AM	#9
Kevin Dooley Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Fort Worth, TX Posts: 414	There is a cheaper solution (albeit not that much cheaper). You can run it to a DVCPRO HD deck...there's one out for $21,000. Or, rent a deck for whatever your format of choice is when you need the 720p60. Or, heck, capture it on a computer in a some type of codec instead of uncompressed... like DVCPRO HD or HDCAM, or even a lossless codec from Lumiere or Cineform. __________________ Kevin Dooley Media Director, Pantego Bible Church

August 17th, 2005, 11:49 AM	#2
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	According to the general manager of product development for JVC, yes the raw uncompressed signal is available. If I'm not mistaken, he may have intimated that it's actually the equivalent of 4:4:4. An HD-SDI converter is the start of the process. Then you'll need a computer with a high-speed bus (PCI 133mhz isn't fast enough to handle uncompressed HD) and a RAID of about 8 hard disks, and enough storage space to handle a data rate of somewhere around 5 seconds per gigabyte. That's not a very common configuration, so I doubt we're going to see end users capturing the uncompressed HD anytime soon.

August 17th, 2005, 11:14 PM	#3
Ian E. Pearson Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Greeley, CO Posts: 52	Capturing an uncompressed signal is probably unreasonable for most setups. If you would like to get a less compressed signal from this camera you might wanna take a look at Cinefrom Prospect HD. It looks like one of the best options if you are trying to convert the analog out to HD SDI and capture from that.

August 18th, 2005, 03:04 AM	#4
Mouayed Zabtia Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 52	I think canopus have product call EDIUS NX for HDV , this product can transfer HD format to SD real time also can convert NTSC format to pal that mean you can work with HDV 30 or 60 even 24 , it will convert to any format you want it , the problem for this product as I think need very high speed specification computer , you can vest canopus site www.justedit.com

August 18th, 2005, 11:48 AM	#5
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	Just to chime in ...don't the BlackMagic Design boards/codecs have the option to convert to a lossless compression scheme? If so, then you would still need an affordable analog to sdi converter. With the BMD, couldn't you get away with SATA Raid instead of scsi? Much more affordable, though I would still recomend getting a mobo with at least 2 pci express slots. Anyone here have a BMD setup?

August 18th, 2005, 12:01 PM	#6
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	Blackmagic has a great analog/HD-SDI converter which sells for $1500. That, plus a $600 HD card also from them, and you are good to go.

August 21st, 2005, 09:16 AM	#7
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Actually the Blackmagic Multibridge converter for HD is $2000.00. The $1500.00 converter is for SD only.

August 21st, 2005, 09:31 AM	#8
Tommy James suspended -- contact admin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 214	Why would anyone want to record the raw uncompressed signal of the camera ? That would be very inefficient. If 720p60 is what you are after then you convert the uncompressed analog signal to digital using an HD-SDI converter then you run that signal through an MPEG-2 encoder then you record the compressed MPEG-2 transport stream. Unfortunately a JVC MPEG-2 encoder costs 30,000 bucks so hopefully there will be a cheaper solution.

August 21st, 2005, 03:37 PM	#11
Michael Maier Trustee Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 1,269	I do think it's unresonable to think one can shoot a whole feature that way. but for greenscreen work, it's very doable, according to many. You need a component to HD-SDi converter and a HD-SDI capturing card like the $600 decklink. Then you can capture it as DVCPRO-HD or some other HD 4:2:2 or 4:4:4 codec. You need a very fast machine and fast and enough storage. I think with 5-6k you can have the set up for it. Component to HD-SDi converter $1,500 Decklink HD $600 Super fast PC self built + 8 drive RAID $4000 (box only, but you should have a monitor and the rest) This is a rough estimate. But should be pretty close. Besides, Blackmagic is coming out with a card which does it all, convert and capture. It might be chaper than the 2 separate solutions.