FX1/Z1 killer? JVC rumored 3 chip HDV camera at NAB 2005?!

[Heath McKnight]

I was at a special HD mini-expo today and talked to some JVC reps (nice guys). Looks like the 24p model is going back to the drawing board, as far as the chips are concerned.

But, in light of the FX1 and the Z1, JVC needs to respond. As such, there is a rumored 3 chip, fully manual (!!!) 1080i24p or 720p24 (depending on how they get it to work with the 24p) that should be announced by JVC at NAB 2005. They said they don't have to protect higher-end HD cameras since they don't have them, and as such can have a 24p camera. They hope it's 1080i, but if the 24p technology works with 720p, they'll go that route. Oh, and 4 audio channels, too. They said that they created the HD1 to sell enough to support the HD10 (consumer sells better than prosumer, I guess) and Sony did the same thing with the FX1 to support the Z1. This new rumored camera won't have a consumer version; probably because sales are anticipated to be very good.

Again, rumor, but it's from JVC reps. Several people heard it there as they were telling me, so I guess it's no secret. Esp. since they know I moderate here.

I figured as much would happen--JVC puts out the first one, Sony puts out better ones, JVC counter-attacks, Canon and Sharp will enter in eventually (they predict Canon first) and so on.

heath

[Gary McClurg]

Heath,

I figured as much would happen--JVC puts out the first one, Sony puts out better ones, JVC counter-attacks, Canon and Sharp will enter in eventually (they predict Canon first) and so on.

So are you saying you think Canon will have one by NAB?

[Heath McKnight]

No, I don't think so and neither does JVC and Sony. Canon won't enter until probably 2006, but who knows?

heath

[Hayden Rivers]

While JVC is going 24p, you think they can write the data at 50mbps while they're at it instead of Sony's 25mbps?

[Barry Green]

Not if it's HDV, no.

Heath, are you saying that they're hinting at a consumer model? Because all that you said fits nicely with what they'd already announced for the 2/3" shoulder-mount model.

[Ignacio Rodriguez]

> Not if it's HDV, no.

Who cares if it's "correct" HDV. 50 Mbps and smaller GOP MPEG2 with a DVCAM track pitch, I bet that could even be accomplished through a software mod to the FX1/Z1.

[Barry Green]

The only point is, people keep asking for 50mbps in their HDV cameras, and it's not possible. HDV as a format is 25mpbs (or 19, for 720p).

So you're asking for a new format. The leading contender for that would likely be Panasonic, who've already stuck the DVCPRO-HD label on a prototype HD palmcorder that they shopped around trade shows last year. That looks very interesting, because it's an established format that suffers none of the MPEG-2 drawbacks/compromises of HDV.

It remains to be seen if they'll actually release that product, or any consumer/prosumer-priced DVCPRO-HD products. For the foreseeable future, Canon, Sony, JVC and Sharp have all committed to 25mbps HDV, it's a reasonably safe bet to say that none of them will deviate from/undercut the standard.

If you want a different format, Panasonic looks like the best hope.

[Laszlo Bodo]

Panasonic has to do something with it's design. This handheld DVCPRO-HD prototype has an amateur looking. It looks like a mix-master not a camcorder.

Beside the DVX's original sunshader the DVX has an acceptable design.

The FX1/Z1U has an impressive design.

[Heath McKnight]

I am guessing this rumored camera is more pro or prosumer than consumer. Keep in mind that the $20,000 camera they had at NAB 2004 needs a new CCD design.

heath

[Scott Anderson]

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : They said that they created the HD1 to sell enough to support the HD10 -->>>

I wouldn't put too much stock in that. At the same time the HD1 was showing at CES in January, a consumer JVC rep told me that the JVC pro guys were "pissed" about the HD1 and were going to probably have to rush a pro version to market by NAB. I know that my JVC Pro reps knew less about the HD1/10 than I did until after NAB.

I do believe that the consumer side of JVC developed the HD1 without consultation from the pro side. Otherwise, we'd have had BASIC options like manual control. I also believe the HD10 was a poor, slapped-together attempt to legitimize the camera for the pro market.

I also believe that the ENG-style vaporware HDV camera displayed at NAB was JVC's attempt to counter Sony's vaporware HDV camera that has since become the FX1/Z1. It doesn't surprise me that JVC pro is dropping the ball on this camera, or at least taking longer in the development cycle. It's clear that Sony was farther along with the Z1 than JVC was with the ENG, HDV, 24p camera.

At least Panasonic had the good sense to keep their prototype low-end HD camera in the back rooms instead of parading it all over the show floor at NAB. JVC consumer certainly lit a fire with the HD1. It seems that JVC professional has been running to play catch-up ever since.

Is it just me, or is it becoming increasingly common for camera makers to show prototypes earlier ane earlier in the production cycle? I'm thinking DVX100 wooden mockup at NAB, the Z1 displayed behind glass, JVC's "we can't give you any firm specs, and the camera's not working yet, but we PROMISE 2/3 chips and 24p HDV" etc.? And does it help us, as customers to know 1 or even 2 years out what's coming, plan for it, and maybe even influence the final design specs? Or would it be better, like Canon, to wait to show a product until you have a shipping version? What are your thoughts on camera vaporware or prototypes?

[Barry Green]

That's a quite interesting point.

It used to be that manufacturers would release whatever they wanted, and expect us (the consumers) to buy it.

Now, yes, it seems like there are a lot more early "trial balloons" being floated. Sony, when first showing the FX1, even said "the features aren't set, we're still asking for customer input"!

Panasonic developed the DVX after listening to customer input.

JVC obviously listened, because they announced a press release that had nothing to do with reality (no camera, no firm specs, no anything, just an announcement of future plans) but boy do those plans sound tempting.

As far as the Panasonic palmcorder/P2 camera, I find it immensely interesting that the first version said "MPEG2-HD" on the side of it, but the most recent version replaced that with "DVCPRO-HD". Could Panasonic be preparing to release a prosumer-priced camera that uses real DVCPRO-HD? That would be huge.

As far as manufacturers listening to consumers, it's certainly getting better. Ken Freed of JVC used to traffic these boards, although I haven't seen him in a while. Stewart English and Jan Crittenden were very accessible, and Jan has now been promoted to product line manager for the DVX and SDX. You can bet that we've been sending a "wish list" of wanted features for whatever camera they eventually introduce.

Years ago we used to go to NAB full of curiousity at what new wonders the camera manufacturers have dreamed up. Now we go to see if they've given us what WE want, rather than what they think we want, and if they haven't, we complain and we wait. And with four major manufacturers competing for our business, that's got to be seen as a good thing, right?

[Heath McKnight]

All good points, though I believe the mock up of the $20,000 JVC HDV camera (24p) wasn't competition for the FX1/Z1 vaporware.

One other thing, there was no Z1 at the show I was attending, but some footage that looked good.

heath

[Chris Hurd]

Barry

<< Ken Freed of JVC used to traffic these boards, although I haven't seen him in a while. >>

Actually he posted just the other day in The Long Black Line.

All of the various manufacturer's reps monitor DV Info on a fairly regular basis, although some remain in "lurk" mode more than others. I encourage all of them to post more frequently.

There is one entity who details a person to specifically scan our boards every Monday morning, as part of their job description -- how's that for an Area 51 topic. But I don't want to hijack Heath's thread, so I'll keep my mouth shut.

[Heath McKnight]

Hoo boy, now I'm paranoid.

heath

[Filip Kovcin]

i want that job also!

it' very nice to have that kind og job - every monday morning, you go to work, thenk click... click - and you are on dv info to see what's important and then after 8 hours - back home! ohh, so nice! you have so much new info that you cannot analyze it until next monday, so you practically work one day in a whole week. (of course this is area 51).


filip