Cinema setting at DVinfo.net

Randy Johnson · May 17th, 2009, 04:33 PM

I am close to giving up on my GY-HD100s nothing against them I got them for weddings and their clearly a film makers camera(my bad). But before giving up completly I started to mess with the advanced settings thinking maybe I should have been using them. What does the cinema setting do? Its in the advanced setup. I know these cameras are for film guys but is there a scene file that makes them look more like good ole wedding type video cameras?

Thanks
Randy

Ted Ramasola · May 17th, 2009, 08:57 PM

I hear you on that Randy.

In our business, we purchase for our corporate dept then hand it down to our event coverage dept.

Our HD100's are there now covering weddings while our hd200 is still in the corporate dept.

Your problem is probably among these, the progressive is giving "stutter" to your footage or that the camera is not good in run and gun low light situations.

In our work, for the event coverage, we shifted to 30P from 24P for smoother movement. Also better for software induced "slomo's".

For low light, try to shift your master black between 1 and 2 to give you a "brighter" image.
Go to advanced, turn cinema to OFF, gamma to standard, level to normal.

Tell me what you think. Dont forget to white balance after you make the changes.

I assigned black normal and stretch 5 to user buttons 1 and 2 in case theres a scene i want to get detail in shadows and i want to tweak later in post.

Hope this helps.

Ted

Alex Humphrey · May 17th, 2009, 10:16 PM

eh? I would say don't mess with your mater black or even your stretching to begin with. The engineers designed the camera to be overall the most response close to the factory settings in cinegama and cinecolor matrix. So give the following a shot.

Take your camera back to factory settings. Then do what I say.

1. 24p / 720p
2. Camera Processes
Master Black Normal
Detail Normal or maybe as low as -3 to start
Black normal
Next Page
White Clip 100%
Knee Manual 80%
Smooth Motion OFF
DNR OFF (could be on, not much of a difference)
Advanced Processes
Cinelike OFF
Color Matrix Standard/Cinelike (take your choice)
Gama Cinelike
Level Normal
Color (if using color matric cinelike above then maybe go +2 or +3 here to jazz it up a bit)

I also run my Zebras at 70-80% setting. This lets me know when faces are starting to become washed out.

The above will give you a good start at what the camera was designed to do.

To answer your question about WHAT IS CINEGAMA SETTINGS? it changes the gama to a more cinelike look. Ok Ok.. it means you gain maybe up to stops of dynamic range with the expense of losing a little in your shadows. no biggie. It means you can capture a wider range of indoor and outdoor environments with less hassle and gives you (combined with knee and even the color cinelike setting) a more film like experience.

30p? I wasted a year shooting footage that never came out looking good on DVD or itunes, then i discovered that 30p is not a supported DVD format. DVD players will play it, but it turns into 24p with 12 interlaced frames mingled in with the footage. 30p is fine for straight to broadcast (60p or 60i) via cross conversion, but pretty near worthless for DVD. ITunes also does not support HD 30p, only 720p @ 24fps. 720p 30fps is converted to 540p at 30fps. So if you are selling itunes compatible DVD in HD on cheap standard DVDs, you better shoot 24p. Want the BEST looking DVD's played on modern DVd players on a HDTV, shoot 24p, 60i is ok and 30p is laughable. I was going to sell my JVC in disgust 2 years ago because I was shooting 30p and listening to everyone who says 30p is better. Well 30p is better when watching at home on your computer in your timeline. But eventually you have to GIVE it to someone ELSE to view. Then 30p fails, except for direct to broadcast.

I could soap box ramble for another 2,000 words of my views of 24p vs 30p vs 60i (ignoring Pals 25p vs 50i) But that wasn't your question. Give the above settings a try outside and see what you think....

If you are having issues with juddering video. Pan slower or faster. Film trick. nothing should cross the from one side to another faster than 5 seconds. You can do whip pans of course. Our friends with new Sony Cmos can't. they get jello vision. (wobble wobble wobble) Some models are better than others...

Hope it helps

Marc Colemont · May 18th, 2009, 04:33 AM

"Our friends with new Sony Cmos can't. they get jello vision. (wobble wobble wobble) Some models are better than others..."
Interesting to know that, as everybody is raving about the Sony CMOS technology.

Shaun Roemich · May 18th, 2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc Colemont

Interesting to know that, as everybody is raving about the Sony CMOS technology.

Not everybody...

I had the option of buying Sony or JVC and I bought JVC (with all the low light and FCP compatibility issues) rather than buying CMOS chips.

To each his/her/its own...

Tim Dashwood · May 18th, 2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Johnson

I started to mess with the advanced settings thinking maybe I should have been using them. What does the cinema setting do? Its in the advanced setup.

Randy. This might help.
White Clip & Knee Control
The cinema setting just sets the gamma curve and matrix to the cine modes.
There's more where that came from on the DVD. If you are interested in taking the next step in professional videography you should consider it. We go over every little function in detail.

Randy Johnson · May 24th, 2009, 05:03 PM

ya know even after my my 3rd firewire meltdown and my anger with JVC it still would be easier to get a BR-HD50 and keep my cameras. I wish there was a way to smooth over the 30p studdering. One part of me thinks its not that big a deal but then I looked at my table shots which I slowed my pans as much as I could after looking at them I relized a couple things 1. I actually was getting physicly sick form watching them 2. Part of the problem may be my wide angle adapter I have. I use a cavision wide angle adapter that gets soft around the edges I think that in combination with the frame rate makes the video look like one big blur. I wish I could try the JVC wide angle adapter I bet its cleaner.

Rigo Torkos · May 28th, 2009, 06:30 PM

I hear so many people ranting on this site about 30p DVD's. I produce videos all the time using HDV24p and HDV30p and the DVD's look beautiful shot in either format. What on earth are you doing to produce these horrible DVD's? Are you talking about Blue Ray or standard DVD? One thing I have noticed is that the detail should be cranked down in these cameras for best overall feel. Right now all my DVD production involves only standard DVD as most consumers and overall customers have not embraced Blue Ray.

Alex Humphrey · May 28th, 2009, 09:25 PM

Since i'm one of the more vocal haters of 30p when convereted to DVD, i'll chime in to specify what I'm talking about, hopefully I'll explain it differently than I did above. That does not mean I hate 30p for HD or NTSC broadcast. I prefer it, but you asked about DVD, and also 24p can be viewed worldwide much easier than 30p.

To my eyes, 30p when viewed on a HDTV or computer monitor 30p encoded to DVD comes out ugly when the scene involves any man made or repeated straight line subject matter. Point your camera at a set bleachers and slowly zoom in tight from wide open. At certain focal lengths the horizontal and veriticle straight lines will begin to blur then buzz violently.

At first i believed this was due to detail settings or maybe because it was a cheap sony DVD player, but it's because there is no recognized 30p format in NTSC for DVD. Just does not exist. DVD players only fully recognize 60i and 24p that has been encoded into 60i with 24p flags. Don't know how else to say it. The DVD players recognize the 24p flags and then tries to put the remaining 6 frames (interlaced then field doubled) in the the remaining section of time before the next frame. Even a static shot of a city scape will result in flexing and movement artifacts of a still subject.

Now the same camera movements on non repeatable patterns, organic in nature and no straight lines, the deinterlacer on your HDTV can usually handle hiding the odd interlaced frames so you will likely never see anything that I'm talking about.

If you can avoid the certain focal lengths where the horizontal lines are significantly greater or lesser than 1 or 2 pixels then the artifacts will not occur.

Did that make any sense or should I try to do a frame grab of my DVDs that I shot in 30p to illustrate what I'm referring to?

May 17th, 2009, 04:33 PM	#1
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	Cinema setting I am close to giving up on my GY-HD100s nothing against them I got them for weddings and their clearly a film makers camera(my bad). But before giving up completly I started to mess with the advanced settings thinking maybe I should have been using them. What does the cinema setting do? Its in the advanced setup. I know these cameras are for film guys but is there a scene file that makes them look more like good ole wedding type video cameras? Thanks Randy

May 18th, 2009, 04:33 AM	#4
Marc Colemont Major Player Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 695	"Our friends with new Sony Cmos can't. they get jello vision. (wobble wobble wobble) Some models are better than others..." Interesting to know that, as everybody is raving about the Sony CMOS technology. __________________ Marc Colemont - Belgium - http://www.mc-productions.be JVC GY-HM850's, HM890, HM600

May 28th, 2009, 06:30 PM	#8
Rigo Torkos New Boot Join Date: May 2008 Location: Santa Cruz California Posts: 7	30p DVD's I hear so many people ranting on this site about 30p DVD's. I produce videos all the time using HDV24p and HDV30p and the DVD's look beautiful shot in either format. What on earth are you doing to produce these horrible DVD's? Are you talking about Blue Ray or standard DVD? One thing I have noticed is that the detail should be cranked down in these cameras for best overall feel. Right now all my DVD production involves only standard DVD as most consumers and overall customers have not embraced Blue Ray.

May 17th, 2009, 08:57 PM	#2
Ted Ramasola Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Allen, Texas U.S.A Posts: 1,117	I hear you on that Randy. In our business, we purchase for our corporate dept then hand it down to our event coverage dept. Our HD100's are there now covering weddings while our hd200 is still in the corporate dept. Your problem is probably among these, the progressive is giving "stutter" to your footage or that the camera is not good in run and gun low light situations. In our work, for the event coverage, we shifted to 30P from 24P for smoother movement. Also better for software induced "slomo's". For low light, try to shift your master black between 1 and 2 to give you a "brighter" image. Go to advanced, turn cinema to OFF, gamma to standard, level to normal. Tell me what you think. Dont forget to white balance after you make the changes. I assigned black normal and stretch 5 to user buttons 1 and 2 in case theres a scene i want to get detail in shadows and i want to tweak later in post. Hope this helps. Ted

May 17th, 2009, 10:16 PM	#3
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	eh? I would say don't mess with your mater black or even your stretching to begin with. The engineers designed the camera to be overall the most response close to the factory settings in cinegama and cinecolor matrix. So give the following a shot. Take your camera back to factory settings. Then do what I say. 1. 24p / 720p 2. Camera Processes Master Black Normal Detail Normal or maybe as low as -3 to start Black normal Next Page White Clip 100% Knee Manual 80% Smooth Motion OFF DNR OFF (could be on, not much of a difference) Advanced Processes Cinelike OFF Color Matrix Standard/Cinelike (take your choice) Gama Cinelike Level Normal Color (if using color matric cinelike above then maybe go +2 or +3 here to jazz it up a bit) I also run my Zebras at 70-80% setting. This lets me know when faces are starting to become washed out. The above will give you a good start at what the camera was designed to do. To answer your question about WHAT IS CINEGAMA SETTINGS? it changes the gama to a more cinelike look. Ok Ok.. it means you gain maybe up to stops of dynamic range with the expense of losing a little in your shadows. no biggie. It means you can capture a wider range of indoor and outdoor environments with less hassle and gives you (combined with knee and even the color cinelike setting) a more film like experience. 30p? I wasted a year shooting footage that never came out looking good on DVD or itunes, then i discovered that 30p is not a supported DVD format. DVD players will play it, but it turns into 24p with 12 interlaced frames mingled in with the footage. 30p is fine for straight to broadcast (60p or 60i) via cross conversion, but pretty near worthless for DVD. ITunes also does not support HD 30p, only 720p @ 24fps. 720p 30fps is converted to 540p at 30fps. So if you are selling itunes compatible DVD in HD on cheap standard DVDs, you better shoot 24p. Want the BEST looking DVD's played on modern DVd players on a HDTV, shoot 24p, 60i is ok and 30p is laughable. I was going to sell my JVC in disgust 2 years ago because I was shooting 30p and listening to everyone who says 30p is better. Well 30p is better when watching at home on your computer in your timeline. But eventually you have to GIVE it to someone ELSE to view. Then 30p fails, except for direct to broadcast. I could soap box ramble for another 2,000 words of my views of 24p vs 30p vs 60i (ignoring Pals 25p vs 50i) But that wasn't your question. Give the above settings a try outside and see what you think.... If you are having issues with juddering video. Pan slower or faster. Film trick. nothing should cross the from one side to another faster than 5 seconds. You can do whip pans of course. Our friends with new Sony Cmos can't. they get jello vision. (wobble wobble wobble) Some models are better than others... Hope it helps

May 24th, 2009, 05:03 PM	#7
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	ya know even after my my 3rd firewire meltdown and my anger with JVC it still would be easier to get a BR-HD50 and keep my cameras. I wish there was a way to smooth over the 30p studdering. One part of me thinks its not that big a deal but then I looked at my table shots which I slowed my pans as much as I could after looking at them I relized a couple things 1. I actually was getting physicly sick form watching them 2. Part of the problem may be my wide angle adapter I have. I use a cavision wide angle adapter that gets soft around the edges I think that in combination with the frame rate makes the video look like one big blur. I wish I could try the JVC wide angle adapter I bet its cleaner.

May 28th, 2009, 09:25 PM	#9
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	Since i'm one of the more vocal haters of 30p when convereted to DVD, i'll chime in to specify what I'm talking about, hopefully I'll explain it differently than I did above. That does not mean I hate 30p for HD or NTSC broadcast. I prefer it, but you asked about DVD, and also 24p can be viewed worldwide much easier than 30p. To my eyes, 30p when viewed on a HDTV or computer monitor 30p encoded to DVD comes out ugly when the scene involves any man made or repeated straight line subject matter. Point your camera at a set bleachers and slowly zoom in tight from wide open. At certain focal lengths the horizontal and veriticle straight lines will begin to blur then buzz violently. At first i believed this was due to detail settings or maybe because it was a cheap sony DVD player, but it's because there is no recognized 30p format in NTSC for DVD. Just does not exist. DVD players only fully recognize 60i and 24p that has been encoded into 60i with 24p flags. Don't know how else to say it. The DVD players recognize the 24p flags and then tries to put the remaining 6 frames (interlaced then field doubled) in the the remaining section of time before the next frame. Even a static shot of a city scape will result in flexing and movement artifacts of a still subject. Now the same camera movements on non repeatable patterns, organic in nature and no straight lines, the deinterlacer on your HDTV can usually handle hiding the odd interlaced frames so you will likely never see anything that I'm talking about. If you can avoid the certain focal lengths where the horizontal lines are significantly greater or lesser than 1 or 2 pixels then the artifacts will not occur. Did that make any sense or should I try to do a frame grab of my DVDs that I shot in 30p to illustrate what I'm referring to?