HD-200 Footage 'Noisy'

Tim Dashwood · March 16th, 2009, 01:37 PM

It's been well documented on dvinfo.net that the HD200 series seems to have more noise than the HD100 series, even though the DSP was bumped up to 14-bit processing.
I've spoken to different JVC engineers about this a few times and no one ever seemed to have a reasonable answer or solution for the added noise.
It is the true disappointment with the HD200 series cameras.

BTW the DNR setting in the HD200 series has little effect on the noise. My only solution has been to lower the detail level (which I do anyway) and crush the blacks more than I prefer. The noise seems to live in the lower IRE range (5-20IRE).

Lee Roberts · March 16th, 2009, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

It's been well documented on dvinfo.net that the HD200 series seems to have more noise than the HD100 series, even though the DSP was bumped up to 14-bit processing.
I've spoken to different JVC engineers about this a few times and no one ever seemed to have a reasonable answer or solution for the added noise.
It is the true disappointment with the HD200 series cameras.

BTW the DNR setting in the HD200 series has little effect on the noise. My only solution has been to lower the detail level (which I do anyway) and crush the blacks more than I prefer. The noise seems to live in the lower IRE range (5-20IRE).

Thanks, Tim. I mentioned that earlier in this post, as I had completely forgotten the comments you made when I first broached the topic nearly a year ago. Hopefully the 700 has addressed these issues -- we'll find out later this week, as that's when my dealer is supposed to have the 700 in stock.

Thanks for taking the time to reply ~ Lee

Steven Lyons · March 16th, 2009, 04:32 PM

yes thanks Tim, I really appreciate your reply.
I didn't know it had been well documented, here in Australia JVC seems to be denying any problem.
Having played with the hm700 Can you comment on this noise issue?, how it effects or doesn't effect this camera. (to my eye I also feel the resolution isn't as good as the 101e)

I have a television series to shoot coming up in May (13 part series).
I shot the pilot with the 101e and the 251e and even though the cameras did not match
very well one of our networks are taking the show, I want to shoot it with 2 hm700's and want to order them soon.
I cannot afford to have the same issues as we are all having with the 200 series....so am really hoping you can comment more deeply on the performance of this camera in comparison to the hd251e and whether you think the canon lens is worth purchasing over the 17x.
Also how you think it will compare with the sony ex3. I have to convince the producers that it is a better choice than the ex3. (everyone has gone ex3 mad over here) we are using final cut and I have halfway convinced them to go with JVC cameras because of work flow and the form factor of camera.
I understand if for political reasons you are not at liberty to comment.
I do hope the jvc engineers have taken this engineerring error seriously and have fixed things though.

Back to the hd 251e, as you said Tim, the dnr makes little difference, and for some reason the low detail level
setting contributes to making dof adapters ( at least the brevis ) too soft to use. I do find minus three in master black does help with noise issue quite significantly though.

Jack Walker · March 16th, 2009, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Lyons

I have a television series to shoot coming up in May (13 part series).

... and whether you think the canon lens is worth purchasing over the 17x.

I will note that according to JVC (and the B&H website) the new Canon lens won't be available until June.

Steven Lyons · March 16th, 2009, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Walker

I will note that according to JVC (and the B&H website) the new Canon lens won't be available until June.

thanks jack, I have the two original 16x lenses on my existing 101e and 251e. if the Canon lens was worth purchasing in June, I planned to sell the 251 and 101e, after the shoot and purchase hm700's without lenses and use the two 16x for now,
or, if not much difference with the canon in quality over 17x I would purchase the hm700's with 17x and try and sell my two cameras before the shoot.

regards,

steve

Jay Kavi · March 18th, 2009, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

It's been well documented on dvinfo.net that the HD200 series seems to have more noise than the HD100 series, even though the DSP was bumped up to 14-bit processing.
I've spoken to different JVC engineers about this a few times and no one ever seemed to have a reasonable answer or solution for the added noise.
It is the true disappointment with the HD200 series cameras.

BTW the DNR setting in the HD200 series has little effect on the noise. My only solution has been to lower the detail level (which I do anyway) and crush the blacks more than I prefer. The noise seems to live in the lower IRE range (5-20IRE).

Damn I just picked one of these up. Should of read the boards first. Oh well.

Lee Roberts · March 19th, 2009, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jay Kavi

Damn I just picked one of these up. Should of read the boards first. Oh well.

I know reading through here might make you feel that you made a poor decision, but I think that's wrong - people are quick to point out flaws in lots of things, especially electronics.

IMO, The 200 may have some limitations, but nothing you can't work with and still get excellent results. At the new list price, I think it's a hard value to beat.

Best of luck ~ Lee

Adam Letch · March 19th, 2009, 05:57 PM

Noise especially seems to be one of the big discussion points of all camera's, and for some it is the deal breaker. I don't discount it myself, but, I deliberated some time before getting the HD251, I had used HD101's before, and have been using this camera as my sole workhorse for a couple of years now.
The camera makes a great image, most clients wouldn't even know what noise is, and even if you mentioned it, would probably not see it. The camera will easily pay for itself if you bought it as a commercial tool. Get out, shoot and make some money with it, at the current costs it'll recover your outlay in no time. If by that point you still really think it's a issue, then buy something else.
Just don't panic, the other posters here are justified in their opinions as current owners, and everybody with 1/3inch camera's in particular always face this bugbear. Use the base rules, reduce detail, at least -5 , as mentioned earlier use your black stretch. I have exclusively recorded HDV, done some DV SD work, but realise that using these compressed formats and 1/3 imagers your picture will never be comparable to a F35 (or EX3 now I hear people saying), maybe a way of using the new SxS recorder can be implemented for the 35mbps? Don't know I've not really looked into it as I'm going XDR as soon as $$ and R&D allow.

March 16th, 2009, 01:37 PM	#16
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	It's been well documented on dvinfo.net that the HD200 series seems to have more noise than the HD100 series, even though the DSP was bumped up to 14-bit processing. I've spoken to different JVC engineers about this a few times and no one ever seemed to have a reasonable answer or solution for the added noise. It is the true disappointment with the HD200 series cameras. BTW the DNR setting in the HD200 series has little effect on the noise. My only solution has been to lower the detail level (which I do anyway) and crush the blacks more than I prefer. The noise seems to live in the lower IRE range (5-20IRE). __________________ Tim Dashwood

March 16th, 2009, 04:32 PM	#18
Steven Lyons Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Gold Coast Australia Posts: 28	200 series noisy yes thanks Tim, I really appreciate your reply. I didn't know it had been well documented, here in Australia JVC seems to be denying any problem. Having played with the hm700 Can you comment on this noise issue?, how it effects or doesn't effect this camera. (to my eye I also feel the resolution isn't as good as the 101e) I have a television series to shoot coming up in May (13 part series). I shot the pilot with the 101e and the 251e and even though the cameras did not match very well one of our networks are taking the show, I want to shoot it with 2 hm700's and want to order them soon. I cannot afford to have the same issues as we are all having with the 200 series....so am really hoping you can comment more deeply on the performance of this camera in comparison to the hd251e and whether you think the canon lens is worth purchasing over the 17x. Also how you think it will compare with the sony ex3. I have to convince the producers that it is a better choice than the ex3. (everyone has gone ex3 mad over here) we are using final cut and I have halfway convinced them to go with JVC cameras because of work flow and the form factor of camera. I understand if for political reasons you are not at liberty to comment. I do hope the jvc engineers have taken this engineerring error seriously and have fixed things though. Back to the hd 251e, as you said Tim, the dnr makes little difference, and for some reason the low detail level setting contributes to making dof adapters ( at least the brevis ) too soft to use. I do find minus three in master black does help with noise issue quite significantly though.

March 19th, 2009, 05:57 PM	#23
Adam Letch Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 414	agreed Noise especially seems to be one of the big discussion points of all camera's, and for some it is the deal breaker. I don't discount it myself, but, I deliberated some time before getting the HD251, I had used HD101's before, and have been using this camera as my sole workhorse for a couple of years now. The camera makes a great image, most clients wouldn't even know what noise is, and even if you mentioned it, would probably not see it. The camera will easily pay for itself if you bought it as a commercial tool. Get out, shoot and make some money with it, at the current costs it'll recover your outlay in no time. If by that point you still really think it's a issue, then buy something else. Just don't panic, the other posters here are justified in their opinions as current owners, and everybody with 1/3inch camera's in particular always face this bugbear. Use the base rules, reduce detail, at least -5 , as mentioned earlier use your black stretch. I have exclusively recorded HDV, done some DV SD work, but realise that using these compressed formats and 1/3 imagers your picture will never be comparable to a F35 (or EX3 now I hear people saying), maybe a way of using the new SxS recorder can be implemented for the 35mbps? Don't know I've not really looked into it as I'm going XDR as soon as $$ and R&D allow.