Master Black on the HD111 at DVinfo.net

Svein Rune Skilnand · February 20th, 2009, 03:16 AM

While I am at it. I am amazed by the information in Tim`s DVD on the Pro HD range. What a helpful tool to have at hand.

I am trying his settings as described in the DVD and have set my camera to cinelike and cinelike matrix ( I think )

I have also set the master black to minus 1. I am not sure about the blacks though because Tim sets it there and then says it should be done in post. Have I misunderstood something.

I guess my question is: I really like this setting because he says this is right where it should be. I am no expert in colour correction, though. The overall picture seems better, perhaps a little darker.

Could this cause problems if am I in a badly lit environment?

Thanks.

Alex Humphrey · February 20th, 2009, 03:40 PM

I think it has a lot to do with how you meter and where you set your Zebra. I think Tim's DVD said he sets his at 95+ or over 100%. In that case how he meters using the zebras at that rate, the MB-1 might help a lot. I tried that setup for a while, and it wasn't for me. I've switched back to I think70-80% zebra... (to keep an eye on detail on human skin in sunlight) and I moved MB back to 0 (normal).

I've gone full circle several times on setting with my HD110. Honestly I didn't like having the Master Black at -1. I think if I want shadows to go black at the end, I'll do it in post. Most of what I do I don't even color correct and the MB-1 I think increased contrast more than I like. so these days I'm using CineGama and usually CineColorMatrix and color +1 to +3 just to bump up the the color a little bit. I've also toned back my detail from Min to -3 or -1.

I really like the way the curves of light roll from bright sunlight to dark shadows without the garish color blooming like on the normal video settings of this and other cameras. When i started using the camera I remember running cine-gama but with matrix to standard and bumped up the color for that over saturated Sony look. If you've seen Art Wolf's HD show on PBS you will know what I mean. I never ran my camera that hot, not by far. But you certainly could if you wanted to.

To answer your question directly beyond how you meter, what look you want, and will you do any color correction in post. Also do you tend to shoot a specific type of shot, or many types of wildly different subject and lighting environments? In darker shots the MB-1 I didn't like all that much, and if I forgot it was on and had to use some Gain, then the camera processors were working against themselves. One trying to make dark colors black, the other processor trying to make black a color, and there was weird pixelation in the shadows under medium gain.

I think in general, the more varied environments you shoot, the closer to factor default (cinegama & cine color matrix is OK) the better. The more control you have over your environment and lighting and setup and time and hopefully a HD monitor plugged into your camera, the more you can go off on your own.

Steve Oakley · February 20th, 2009, 03:59 PM

I run my black level at -2 to -1 normally. just like the look better. its a big jump between the two.

in dark situations this can either hide a lot of noise in dark areas which is good provided you got some pools of light, or by making the picture dark and push you into too dark. all depends on the shot, and actually stopping to think and make and adjustment.

the other two adjustments are gamma and black stretch which I'm pretty aggressive on. I get a lot of mid tones. the problem is you really have to nail exposure in camera as this sort of look doesn't like much color correction and I've been thinking of backing off a bit. then the DSP's come into play as well where iris changes no longer make for linear changes in the image brightness.

Svein Rune Skilnand · February 22nd, 2009, 04:03 AM

Thanks for the input.

If I try to read between the lines then I have to be careful with the black setting in camera. I have set my zebras to over 100%, as recommended by Tim.

Should I rather set the black level in post? I just recently learned what kind of effect color correction has on the overall picture. Problem is I have a lot to learn, but very eager to do so.

I don`t know if you have seen Tim`s DVD but he has shot some excellent music videos on it, and I really liked the "look" he has achieved. He says he is using a setting called Cinewide. Does anyone know what that settings is?

Svein Rune

Alex Humphrey · February 22nd, 2009, 09:04 AM

It's in the sticky at the top of dvinfo.net's JVC section. 100 series and 200 series are different color handling, so go to the sticky that matches your camera and experiment. There are the typed changes you input into your camera, or you can download the file to put on your SD card and import directly into your camera.

Steve Oakley · February 22nd, 2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Svein Rune Skilnand

Thanks for the input.
If I try to read between the lines then I have to be careful with the black setting in camera. I have set my zebras to over 100%, as recommended by Tim.

Should I rather set the black level in post? I just recently learned what kind of effect color correction has on the overall picture. Problem is I have a lot to learn, but very eager to do so.
Svein Rune

clearly its two different schools of thought, and either is correct. you can shoot with an aggressive look in camera, but you may be stuck with it if you don't like it. specifically crushing the blacks will mean there will be little to no information to expand in post if you wanted to get something back. same goes for diffusion on camera which I like to do. its much harder to simulate in post, especially when light(s) flare the filter. specifically I like a 1/2 double fog sometimes and getting the filter to flare is a specific look you can't duplicate in post.

the other way is to record an image with as much information as possible, and then play with it in post as much as you like.

I tend to get most of my look in camera, and then in post really just work on fine tuning the differences out. however, you must be decisive about what you are shooting for this to work, and not make an major exposure mistakes. having infinite options is not always a good thing - it can lead to over guessing and playing with something to no end and just waste a lot of time with results that may not be all that great.

February 20th, 2009, 03:16 AM	#1
Svein Rune Skilnand Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Fidjeland, Norway Posts: 289	Master Black on the HD111 While I am at it. I am amazed by the information in Tim`s DVD on the Pro HD range. What a helpful tool to have at hand. I am trying his settings as described in the DVD and have set my camera to cinelike and cinelike matrix ( I think ) I have also set the master black to minus 1. I am not sure about the blacks though because Tim sets it there and then says it should be done in post. Have I misunderstood something. I guess my question is: I really like this setting because he says this is right where it should be. I am no expert in colour correction, though. The overall picture seems better, perhaps a little darker. Could this cause problems if am I in a badly lit environment? Thanks.

February 20th, 2009, 03:40 PM	#2
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	I think it has a lot to do with how you meter and where you set your Zebra. I think Tim's DVD said he sets his at 95+ or over 100%. In that case how he meters using the zebras at that rate, the MB-1 might help a lot. I tried that setup for a while, and it wasn't for me. I've switched back to I think70-80% zebra... (to keep an eye on detail on human skin in sunlight) and I moved MB back to 0 (normal). I've gone full circle several times on setting with my HD110. Honestly I didn't like having the Master Black at -1. I think if I want shadows to go black at the end, I'll do it in post. Most of what I do I don't even color correct and the MB-1 I think increased contrast more than I like. so these days I'm using CineGama and usually CineColorMatrix and color +1 to +3 just to bump up the the color a little bit. I've also toned back my detail from Min to -3 or -1. I really like the way the curves of light roll from bright sunlight to dark shadows without the garish color blooming like on the normal video settings of this and other cameras. When i started using the camera I remember running cine-gama but with matrix to standard and bumped up the color for that over saturated Sony look. If you've seen Art Wolf's HD show on PBS you will know what I mean. I never ran my camera that hot, not by far. But you certainly could if you wanted to. To answer your question directly beyond how you meter, what look you want, and will you do any color correction in post. Also do you tend to shoot a specific type of shot, or many types of wildly different subject and lighting environments? In darker shots the MB-1 I didn't like all that much, and if I forgot it was on and had to use some Gain, then the camera processors were working against themselves. One trying to make dark colors black, the other processor trying to make black a color, and there was weird pixelation in the shadows under medium gain. I think in general, the more varied environments you shoot, the closer to factor default (cinegama & cine color matrix is OK) the better. The more control you have over your environment and lighting and setup and time and hopefully a HD monitor plugged into your camera, the more you can go off on your own.

February 20th, 2009, 03:59 PM	#3
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	I run my black level at -2 to -1 normally. just like the look better. its a big jump between the two. in dark situations this can either hide a lot of noise in dark areas which is good provided you got some pools of light, or by making the picture dark and push you into too dark. all depends on the shot, and actually stopping to think and make and adjustment. the other two adjustments are gamma and black stretch which I'm pretty aggressive on. I get a lot of mid tones. the problem is you really have to nail exposure in camera as this sort of look doesn't like much color correction and I've been thinking of backing off a bit. then the DSP's come into play as well where iris changes no longer make for linear changes in the image brightness.

February 22nd, 2009, 04:03 AM	#4
Svein Rune Skilnand Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Fidjeland, Norway Posts: 289	Thanks for the input. If I try to read between the lines then I have to be careful with the black setting in camera. I have set my zebras to over 100%, as recommended by Tim. Should I rather set the black level in post? I just recently learned what kind of effect color correction has on the overall picture. Problem is I have a lot to learn, but very eager to do so. I don`t know if you have seen Tim`s DVD but he has shot some excellent music videos on it, and I really liked the "look" he has achieved. He says he is using a setting called Cinewide. Does anyone know what that settings is? Svein Rune

February 22nd, 2009, 09:04 AM	#5
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	It's in the sticky at the top of dvinfo.net's JVC section. 100 series and 200 series are different color handling, so go to the sticky that matches your camera and experiment. There are the typed changes you input into your camera, or you can download the file to put on your SD card and import directly into your camera.