Need Help: JVC110, 720, 24p- footage OUT OF SYNC with Avid MC 3.0!! at DVinfo.net

Nina Gilberti · February 7th, 2009, 07:57 AM

Has anyone found a work around:

1. Using the JVC GY-HD110, shot footage at 720, 24p. Using the BR-HD50U to digitize into the Avid Media Composer 3.1 software. ALL FIRMWARE on camera and deck are UP TO DATE.

2. Everything is set correctly in the Avid to capture, etc...

3. ALL of the footage is out of sync after capturing. The sync is fine on the original tapes.

4. There is NO consistent offset- some clips are off by 15 frames! Others by 4-5 frames.

5. This is a KNOWN issue, apparently-- since 2005, with Avid and the 110!!! Granted, the MC3.0 didn't come out until recently, but sync has been a problem with Avid in the past. I didn't know about it, unfortunately. Also, it's an issue with MC3.0 and the 200 camera, from the posts I'm reading.

6. Spoke to Mike at ClipWrap, and he said there was NO way ClipWrap can help me with the clips already digitized that are out of sync. He wasn't sure that ClipWrap could help me with this issue given all of material recorded to tape, vs firestore.

7. I received an email from Marion at JVC and she said she was told I need to go HDMI out to HD/SDI via AJA- to work with Avid. This is the first time I'm hearing this, but I'm open to the possibility of it working...

I am going into a 24p (23.976) project.

Now, I did some research and found some users having problems with the BR-HD50 and generating 'true' HDMI out!!!! Apparently, THAT'S an issue as well!!

I'm beside myself here-- dealing with issue after issue between JVC's 110 & 200 cameras, deck and Avid. I'm a professional editor in L.A. and worked on Avid for over 15 years. I simply can not use FCP- tried, and found it completely frustrating. I'm doing a documentary- shot 130 hours of footage, and do not want to be worrying about HOW to make an edit at this point, by using FCP. I'd like to intuitively cut this material, via Avid. That said, I need to fix this sync issue.

Any advice?? Thank you.

Bill Ravens · February 7th, 2009, 08:10 AM

Hi Nina...

This is a pretty old problem that none of the NLE makers have addressed, completely. The problem seems to be the way JVC encodes audio timecode several frames off of the video TC. At any rate, most NLE's can't handle it.

OK, there are several workarounds, one of them should work for you. The basic idea is to run the footage thru software that can read the TC without a hiccup, then "transcode" back into m2t and "repair" the TC issue. Since you're sending m2t in and m2t out, there really is no transcoding occurring and the footage will not be degraded. So, the programs that will successfully read HD100/110 footage, that I've used, are TMPGENC4, Procoder3, and Edius 5.

My personal choice is to use Cineform Neo HD for this task. Neo will read the m2t files perfectly. In this case, you do transcode to an interframe avi, which is much more appropriate as a DI than native editing in mpeg2(m2t). Neo will also change the framerate, if you wish. Native editing of 24fps HDxx files in Avid is plagued by the fact that Media Composer sees JVC streams as 60 fps. My workflow is exclusively with Cineform.

Edit: If you're trying to capture from tape, I'm afraid I can only be of limited help to you. I always record to FS100HD, so, I never do tape capture. Once again,however, Cineform should be able to handle it.

Well, I hope all of this has been a help to you.
Best,
Bill R

Nina Gilberti · February 7th, 2009, 09:01 AM

Thank you for your reply Bill. I checked out the CineForm website and found this:

CineForm is working with Avid to enable compatible workflows for CineForm media within Avid Media Composer and DS. The first level of this support, available today, is the ability to import CineForm AVI and MOV files through MetaFuze into Avid DNxHD files.

Currently, imported media does not retain timecode information. Additional tools will be provided in the future to assist with timecode retention.

Creating CineForm Media: It is currently not possible to create CineForm media within Avid products. To otherwise create CineForm media, any of CineForm's editing-related products for Mac or Windows can be used. CineForm files are cross-platform (Windows / Mac) compatible, and regardless of origination can be imported through MetaFuze. See our products summary page for more information on CineForm products.

I don't have MetaFuze, and I really want to retain my timecode information.

What a nightmare!

Bill Ravens · February 7th, 2009, 09:23 AM

I'm not sure what Cineform is saying about compatibility with Avid. I import cineform intermediates into avid on a daily basis. I works fine! However, it's true, they do not carry T/C info across the transcode. If you can view the native file, I would think you could reproduce the t/c manually, on the Avid side. I beleive Cineform Neo is available with a free 30 day trial, which should show you whether it works.

On a side note, I do not use MetaFuze, as this is used for manipulating metadata prior to import. It's not needed. Metafuze is a free download at the Avid website and is included on your Media Composer install disk.

Yeah, it is rather nightmarish.

Alex Humphrey · February 7th, 2009, 09:52 AM

Bleaahh!!!! I thought these sound synch problems were fixed last century! Never used Avid, but learned on Adobe Premier and moved to FCS. I haven't noticed any sound synch problems with FCS, especially since I capture with a FE DTE drive on a mac (avoids the FCP clip segmenting problem that I think STILL isn't fixed). But yes, it's sad that these issues fail to get fixed by the software companies. Really no excuse for it I think.

Are you using a tower and do you have access to a video capture card or are you using firewire? If you captured with a real card in a different format (Blackmagic or similar card) I am guessing wildly that it should eliminate the problem? Would capturing with a external DTE drive maybe fix the issue? Do you think the audio dropping out of synch is happening during capture, or does it get lost while editing?

Gavin Owens · February 7th, 2009, 03:31 PM

Nina,
Avoid avid if you want to maintain your sanity.
For some strange reason..... programming/bad market responce, Avid have failed to react favourably to this camera. Their loss I suppose.
The only solution for me was to get Edius (I'm PC based). It's by far the most stable NLE out there but limited to say the least!
My usual workflow is cut A/B in Edius and post in Adobe After Effects
It seems Avid looks at JVC ProHD as a toy and despite previous promises, they failed to give it full support. The result of which, I don't know of any independents working with Avid MC.
Their market is mostly broadcast based and falling all the time.
My advice to you is to change your NLE.
Hope this helps
G

Nina Gilberti · February 8th, 2009, 01:03 PM

I've only worked on the Avid, as I'm a broadcast editor. For this project, Avid is the only way for me to edit at this point.

I'm on a MAC PRO. Using Fire Wire to capture. The audio is out of sync during capture/digitizing. Luckily, I can see the offset per clip from the video and audio time code. STILL, this is a ridiculous problem.

You're right about Avid not taking the independent world seriously. It's really too bad for them, because they the ones who are losing customers.

JVC should really be hounding them about this, and taking a more pro-active approach to solving their customers issues.

Disappointing all the way around.

Jack Walker · February 8th, 2009, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gavin Owens

My usual workflow is cut A/B in Edius and post in Adobe After Effects

I am going to change NLEs and have been strongly considering Edius 5 (probably with the HDStorm Card).

I also will do additional work in AfterEffects CS3.

What codec do you use to go from Edius to AfterEffects. What is your delivery format?

Thanks!

Regarding the topic of the thread, it would seem the soloution would be to use Cineform as Bill suggests, or at lease to capture everything with a rock solid capture utility first, so you at least have files to work with that are in synch.

Ted Ramasola · February 8th, 2009, 04:20 PM

I have two jvc hdxx cameras, with 2 dvx's one sony hd1000 in our facility all of their fooatge can be used on our 4 EDIUS workbays. I must say that this is an under rated NLE.

It is so stable. You can place m2ts on the timeline at any frame rate. Mix it up with avi, and others formats. No problem.
PnP, color correction, still no rendering.
No conforming, no intermediate transcoding.

60p, 30p, 24P 60i.

You can change project setting any time. Say SD to HD and back while editing.

Also has a modest timeline to DVD feature with basic menu creation.

AVID hasnt adapted. Thats true.

I recommend this over vegas and Premiere.

Gavin Owens · February 8th, 2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina Gilberti

JVC should really be hounding them about this, and taking a more pro-active approach to solving their customers issues.

As far as I can see, JVC was given the runaround by Avid for a long time when it came to support. Now that JVC has announced a 1080p version (GY-HM700) Avid won't bother thier arses to fix the problems with the JVC 720p which is quickly becoming a thing of the past.
You have a lot of footage and I feel for you. Other than manualy sync it as you go, I can't think of anything else to do. Luckily the Avid audio wave referance is quite detailed so you might be able to wizz throught it. Sorry for your troubles

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack Walker

What codec do you use to go from Edius to AfterEffects. What is your delivery format?

I mainly use Canopus HQ and sometimes lossless (depending on the size of the project).
HQ has served me well and as for exporting to AE, I have had no problems. That said, my delivery format is web based. I currently have 2 projects on the go that will be finished on DVD so I'll wait and see how that shapes up. I can't imagine any problems.

One thing I realised lately is that I don't get as tired as I used to with Avid after a full days edit. The GUI in Edius is a lot easier on the eyes.

Gavin Owens · February 8th, 2009, 04:43 PM

double post???

Steve Oakley · February 8th, 2009, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nina Gilberti

I've only worked on the Avid, as I'm a broadcast editor. For this project, Avid is the only way for me to edit at this point.

having trained avid editors to use FCP at a national network in NYC, EVERY single one of them said, "this is so much easier than Avid".... every one.

the first thing I'll say is, don't try to use FCP like avid because you won't be happy. once you give that up, you'll make friend with FCP and wonder why you still continue to use Avid.

BTW, I got a good laugh out of your line, after all, avid is using AJA's hardware, which has FCP roots.... there is so much FCP in "broadcast" these days it isn't funny. avid is an LA thing and once you leave LA, its another world out there.

Alex Humphrey · February 8th, 2009, 09:18 PM

Does AVID capture in MT2, Quicktime or some other wrapper? If it does MT2 have you tried capturing MT2 via a DTE drive and bypass AVID's capture software? It seems like you were down this road last April with FCP with a DTE drive. Is this the same project that you gave up on FCP?

Steve Oakley · February 9th, 2009, 12:30 AM

Avid uses either OMF ( old format ) or MXF. it converts everything to the choosen format for the project. it doesn't edit QT natively.

Nina Gilberti · February 9th, 2009, 07:10 PM

Yes, Alex- this is the same project--- only I have more footage now. I captured 70 hours from tape into firestore (.mov files) when we last spoke-- to try to work in FCP. Issues arose there with time code- not keeping the original TC from the tape once imported from DR-HD100 into FCP. Then, I tried to cut with FCP and became totally frustrated.

Avid Media Composer 3.0 came out shortly after that, and I abandoned FCP only to face yet another problem- this sync issue. I can resync manually- the headache is I have 135 hours of material.

February 7th, 2009, 07:57 AM	#1
Nina Gilberti New Boot Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 8	Need Help: JVC110, 720, 24p- footage OUT OF SYNC with Avid MC 3.0!! Has anyone found a work around: 1. Using the JVC GY-HD110, shot footage at 720, 24p. Using the BR-HD50U to digitize into the Avid Media Composer 3.1 software. ALL FIRMWARE on camera and deck are UP TO DATE. 2. Everything is set correctly in the Avid to capture, etc... 3. ALL of the footage is out of sync after capturing. The sync is fine on the original tapes. 4. There is NO consistent offset- some clips are off by 15 frames! Others by 4-5 frames. 5. This is a KNOWN issue, apparently-- since 2005, with Avid and the 110!!! Granted, the MC3.0 didn't come out until recently, but sync has been a problem with Avid in the past. I didn't know about it, unfortunately. Also, it's an issue with MC3.0 and the 200 camera, from the posts I'm reading. 6. Spoke to Mike at ClipWrap, and he said there was NO way ClipWrap can help me with the clips already digitized that are out of sync. He wasn't sure that ClipWrap could help me with this issue given all of material recorded to tape, vs firestore. 7. I received an email from Marion at JVC and she said she was told I need to go HDMI out to HD/SDI via AJA- to work with Avid. This is the first time I'm hearing this, but I'm open to the possibility of it working... I am going into a 24p (23.976) project. Now, I did some research and found some users having problems with the BR-HD50 and generating 'true' HDMI out!!!! Apparently, THAT'S an issue as well!! I'm beside myself here-- dealing with issue after issue between JVC's 110 & 200 cameras, deck and Avid. I'm a professional editor in L.A. and worked on Avid for over 15 years. I simply can not use FCP- tried, and found it completely frustrating. I'm doing a documentary- shot 130 hours of footage, and do not want to be worrying about HOW to make an edit at this point, by using FCP. I'd like to intuitively cut this material, via Avid. That said, I need to fix this sync issue. Any advice?? Thank you.

February 7th, 2009, 08:10 AM	#2
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Hi Nina... This is a pretty old problem that none of the NLE makers have addressed, completely. The problem seems to be the way JVC encodes audio timecode several frames off of the video TC. At any rate, most NLE's can't handle it. OK, there are several workarounds, one of them should work for you. The basic idea is to run the footage thru software that can read the TC without a hiccup, then "transcode" back into m2t and "repair" the TC issue. Since you're sending m2t in and m2t out, there really is no transcoding occurring and the footage will not be degraded. So, the programs that will successfully read HD100/110 footage, that I've used, are TMPGENC4, Procoder3, and Edius 5. My personal choice is to use Cineform Neo HD for this task. Neo will read the m2t files perfectly. In this case, you do transcode to an interframe avi, which is much more appropriate as a DI than native editing in mpeg2(m2t). Neo will also change the framerate, if you wish. Native editing of 24fps HDxx files in Avid is plagued by the fact that Media Composer sees JVC streams as 60 fps. My workflow is exclusively with Cineform. Edit: If you're trying to capture from tape, I'm afraid I can only be of limited help to you. I always record to FS100HD, so, I never do tape capture. Once again,however, Cineform should be able to handle it. Well, I hope all of this has been a help to you. Best, Bill R Last edited by Bill Ravens; February 7th, 2009 at 08:52 AM.

February 7th, 2009, 09:01 AM	#3
Nina Gilberti New Boot Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 8	CineForm and Avid- not compatible. Thank you for your reply Bill. I checked out the CineForm website and found this: CineForm is working with Avid to enable compatible workflows for CineForm media within Avid Media Composer and DS. The first level of this support, available today, is the ability to import CineForm AVI and MOV files through MetaFuze into Avid DNxHD files. Currently, imported media does not retain timecode information. Additional tools will be provided in the future to assist with timecode retention. Creating CineForm Media: It is currently not possible to create CineForm media within Avid products. To otherwise create CineForm media, any of CineForm's editing-related products for Mac or Windows can be used. CineForm files are cross-platform (Windows / Mac) compatible, and regardless of origination can be imported through MetaFuze. See our products summary page for more information on CineForm products. I don't have MetaFuze, and I really want to retain my timecode information. What a nightmare!

February 8th, 2009, 04:43 PM	#11
Gavin Owens Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Grado, Asturias, Spain Posts: 39	double post??? Last edited by Gavin Owens; February 8th, 2009 at 04:46 PM. Reason: double post???

February 7th, 2009, 09:23 AM	#4
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	I'm not sure what Cineform is saying about compatibility with Avid. I import cineform intermediates into avid on a daily basis. I works fine! However, it's true, they do not carry T/C info across the transcode. If you can view the native file, I would think you could reproduce the t/c manually, on the Avid side. I beleive Cineform Neo is available with a free 30 day trial, which should show you whether it works. On a side note, I do not use MetaFuze, as this is used for manipulating metadata prior to import. It's not needed. Metafuze is a free download at the Avid website and is included on your Media Composer install disk. Yeah, it is rather nightmarish.

February 7th, 2009, 09:52 AM	#5
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	Bleaahh!!!! I thought these sound synch problems were fixed last century! Never used Avid, but learned on Adobe Premier and moved to FCS. I haven't noticed any sound synch problems with FCS, especially since I capture with a FE DTE drive on a mac (avoids the FCP clip segmenting problem that I think STILL isn't fixed). But yes, it's sad that these issues fail to get fixed by the software companies. Really no excuse for it I think. Are you using a tower and do you have access to a video capture card or are you using firewire? If you captured with a real card in a different format (Blackmagic or similar card) I am guessing wildly that it should eliminate the problem? Would capturing with a external DTE drive maybe fix the issue? Do you think the audio dropping out of synch is happening during capture, or does it get lost while editing?

February 7th, 2009, 03:31 PM	#6
Gavin Owens Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Grado, Asturias, Spain Posts: 39	Nina, Avoid avid if you want to maintain your sanity. For some strange reason..... programming/bad market responce, Avid have failed to react favourably to this camera. Their loss I suppose. The only solution for me was to get Edius (I'm PC based). It's by far the most stable NLE out there but limited to say the least! My usual workflow is cut A/B in Edius and post in Adobe After Effects It seems Avid looks at JVC ProHD as a toy and despite previous promises, they failed to give it full support. The result of which, I don't know of any independents working with Avid MC. Their market is mostly broadcast based and falling all the time. My advice to you is to change your NLE. Hope this helps G

February 8th, 2009, 01:03 PM	#7
Nina Gilberti New Boot Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 8	I've only worked on the Avid, as I'm a broadcast editor. For this project, Avid is the only way for me to edit at this point. I'm on a MAC PRO. Using Fire Wire to capture. The audio is out of sync during capture/digitizing. Luckily, I can see the offset per clip from the video and audio time code. STILL, this is a ridiculous problem. You're right about Avid not taking the independent world seriously. It's really too bad for them, because they the ones who are losing customers. JVC should really be hounding them about this, and taking a more pro-active approach to solving their customers issues. Disappointing all the way around.

February 8th, 2009, 04:20 PM	#9
Ted Ramasola Trustee Join Date: May 2005 Location: Allen, Texas U.S.A Posts: 1,117	I have two jvc hdxx cameras, with 2 dvx's one sony hd1000 in our facility all of their fooatge can be used on our 4 EDIUS workbays. I must say that this is an under rated NLE. It is so stable. You can place m2ts on the timeline at any frame rate. Mix it up with avi, and others formats. No problem. PnP, color correction, still no rendering. No conforming, no intermediate transcoding. 60p, 30p, 24P 60i. You can change project setting any time. Say SD to HD and back while editing. Also has a modest timeline to DVD feature with basic menu creation. AVID hasnt adapted. Thats true. I recommend this over vegas and Premiere.

February 8th, 2009, 09:18 PM	#13
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	Does AVID capture in MT2, Quicktime or some other wrapper? If it does MT2 have you tried capturing MT2 via a DTE drive and bypass AVID's capture software? It seems like you were down this road last April with FCP with a DTE drive. Is this the same project that you gave up on FCP?

February 9th, 2009, 12:30 AM	#14
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	Avid uses either OMF ( old format ) or MXF. it converts everything to the choosen format for the project. it doesn't edit QT natively.

February 9th, 2009, 07:10 PM	#15
Nina Gilberti New Boot Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 8	Yes, Alex- this is the same project--- only I have more footage now. I captured 70 hours from tape into firestore (.mov files) when we last spoke-- to try to work in FCP. Issues arose there with time code- not keeping the original TC from the tape once imported from DR-HD100 into FCP. Then, I tried to cut with FCP and became totally frustrated. Avid Media Composer 3.0 came out shortly after that, and I abandoned FCP only to face yet another problem- this sync issue. I can resync manually- the headache is I have 135 hours of material.