Studdering video at DVinfo.net

Randy Johnson · January 19th, 2009, 08:20 PM

I know I asked this before but I don't remember what the response was, I am starting to finally use my GY-HD 100s in HD I have been using them in SD for years waiting for my brides to start asking for HD(I of course do weddings). One thing I noticed was the video seems studdary (lack of a better term) when theres movement espcially when I move which in the wedding bus I have to do. Is this because of the 30p side of 72p 30? Is there ANYTHING I can do about it? shoot in 24p? up mu Shutter speed past 1/60? or do I need to get cameas that do 1080i 60? I just did a bridal show and much to my surprise the brides did notice!

Thanks
Randy

Adam Grunseth · January 19th, 2009, 09:01 PM

Without seeing your video it will be hard for anyone to tell for sure whats going on. However, you could simply be seeing the difference between a 60hz image and a 30hz image. Slowing the frame rate down to 24p will not help. Shooting these lower frame rates really requires a different style of shooting, especially if your used to 60i and all the camera moves you can do with the image being sampled 60 times a second.

24p is used for film not because it is better than 60p or anything else, it is just the lowest possible frame rate that was found to still be acceptable for producing the illusion of motion without too much stutter. However, at 24p, and 30p too, you really have to watch the way you shoot to hide the motion stutter, pans and tilts especially. When you are panning, try to pan with an object as it moves from one point to another. Keeping that object stationary in the frame as it moves will help hide the motion stutter in the background. If you do a pan where your not following an object, you have to do it way, way, way slower then you ever would with 60i. Seriously, the difference in the speed of moves you can get away with is staggering.

You really do need to come up with a new way to shoot, 60i is very forgiving with motion, 30p is not forgiving at all. I am sure others here can give you more tips for shooting 24 and 30p, but for myself I find if I just make sure to do very slow camera moves, and always pan with moving objects I get good results.

I too shoot weddings with this camera, and found I had to shoot things a lot differently. For example, at the reception table I can no longer pan from the gifts over to the cake like I did in 60i. The result would be an unacceptably long camera move or terrible motion stutter. Instead now I will rack focus from the gifts to the cake. It is the same overall effect, but in a way that works within the realm of low frame rate capture.

Randy Johnson · January 19th, 2009, 09:16 PM

im not worried about my shooting I can stop panning but in weddings everything moves and thats where im getting mu blurring Bouquet toss dancing etc. Maybe I need to sell my GY-hd100s and get something that does 60i

Alex Humphrey · January 20th, 2009, 12:24 AM

Why sell? shoot 24p at 1/48th. 60i is nearly as blurry during panning at 1/60th anyway. 24p will require operators to be less sloppy while shooting to be sure, but it's not any great feat to shoot well with 24p.

1. Keep pans 5 seconds or longer to cross from one side of the frame to the other. Or pan a little faster than you would with 60i, then hang on the subject for a little longer than you would with 60i.
2. Avoid empty pans! Pan with a person, cat, train, something from left to right or right to left. Non one notices blurry backgrounds and movement if there is a subject you are panning with.
3. 30p? Hate it. Especially when converted to DVD. DVD players generally don't know how to decode 30p DVD's well. Comes out as 24p (48 interlaced frames recombined to 24p) frames with 12 extra interlaced frames intermingled with the 24p frames. Ugly flexing DVD's that look worse than interlaced video. Shoot 24p or 60i.

If you haven't tried all of the above, give them a try on your day off and give your camera a 2nd chance. You might like it. Don't forget editing and render times are going to be 50% less with 24p HDV than 60i HDV.

Dennis Robinson · January 20th, 2009, 03:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Johnson

im not worried about my shooting I can stop panning but in weddings everything moves and thats where im getting mu blurring Bouquet toss dancing etc. Maybe I need to sell my GY-hd100s and get something that does 60i

Learn to shoot it. You will never shoot interlace again.

Randy Johnson · January 20th, 2009, 05:53 AM

So cameras that are 60p or 6oi have the same problem? Like I said im not worried about me as much as my subjects. I can shoot static if I need too, its the subjects that I cant keep from moving if I wanted to. the thing is I think this camera was made for film where things dont really move ie talking heads for that this camera is perfect.

Claude Mangold · January 20th, 2009, 07:48 AM

there's one for 35-mm on this site: Gecko-Cam

there must be similar tables for 16mm and for 1/3 digital .

I second Alex, try getting used to progressive shooting. your subjects will prefer the progressive look to any video look, after a short time.

it's a great camera.

(independently of the above: what Hardware / software are you using to view HD footage? there can be a codec problem with some)

Dennis Robinson · January 20th, 2009, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randy Johnson

So cameras that are 60p or 6oi have the same problem? Like I said im not worried about me as much as my subjects. I can shoot static if I need too, its the subjects that I cant keep from moving if I wanted to. the thing is I think this camera was made for film where things dont really move ie talking heads for that this camera is perfect.

Hi Randy,
You miss the point. You will need to learn to shoot progressive like i had to when i first bought my camera. i almost went mad getting used to it but now i shoot all types of TV commercials , Real estate videos and corporate work with no effort at all.
You must learn the new style of shooting. I pan like normal now i know how to do it.
Spend the time but dont think these cameras are only good for static shots. You need to put the effort in.

Randy Johnson · January 20th, 2009, 01:24 PM

I will stay with it, Thanks!

Randy

Stuart Nimmo · January 21st, 2009, 05:18 PM

Randy, you lead a wild life! 'Studdery' shots would seem apt for weddings and Bouquet toss dancing.... Who says Brits and Americans speak the same language?

It's down to the pan speeds Randy, keep them slow and short, or fast whip pans... err. Otherwise synchronize your pan speed with the moving subject so that they remain almost static in frame. Try zooming out as you pan, or let the subject exit a short buffered pan and then pick them up in a reframed shot.

I always use a good pan-bar zoom control/ run/ cut switch. The German company "Bebob" make very good ones; they're not so expensive and make controlling all this very much more precise. Just be sure you order the right one for your lens, the stock lens takes an 8-pin zoom Fujinon command, broadcast lenses tend to take 12-pin commands.

January 19th, 2009, 08:20 PM	#1
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	Studdering video I know I asked this before but I don't remember what the response was, I am starting to finally use my GY-HD 100s in HD I have been using them in SD for years waiting for my brides to start asking for HD(I of course do weddings). One thing I noticed was the video seems studdary (lack of a better term) when theres movement espcially when I move which in the wedding bus I have to do. Is this because of the 30p side of 72p 30? Is there ANYTHING I can do about it? shoot in 24p? up mu Shutter speed past 1/60? or do I need to get cameas that do 1080i 60? I just did a bridal show and much to my surprise the brides did notice! Thanks Randy

January 19th, 2009, 09:01 PM	#2
Adam Grunseth Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Eugene Oregon Posts: 393	hmmmm Without seeing your video it will be hard for anyone to tell for sure whats going on. However, you could simply be seeing the difference between a 60hz image and a 30hz image. Slowing the frame rate down to 24p will not help. Shooting these lower frame rates really requires a different style of shooting, especially if your used to 60i and all the camera moves you can do with the image being sampled 60 times a second. 24p is used for film not because it is better than 60p or anything else, it is just the lowest possible frame rate that was found to still be acceptable for producing the illusion of motion without too much stutter. However, at 24p, and 30p too, you really have to watch the way you shoot to hide the motion stutter, pans and tilts especially. When you are panning, try to pan with an object as it moves from one point to another. Keeping that object stationary in the frame as it moves will help hide the motion stutter in the background. If you do a pan where your not following an object, you have to do it way, way, way slower then you ever would with 60i. Seriously, the difference in the speed of moves you can get away with is staggering. You really do need to come up with a new way to shoot, 60i is very forgiving with motion, 30p is not forgiving at all. I am sure others here can give you more tips for shooting 24 and 30p, but for myself I find if I just make sure to do very slow camera moves, and always pan with moving objects I get good results. I too shoot weddings with this camera, and found I had to shoot things a lot differently. For example, at the reception table I can no longer pan from the gifts over to the cake like I did in 60i. The result would be an unacceptably long camera move or terrible motion stutter. Instead now I will rack focus from the gifts to the cake. It is the same overall effect, but in a way that works within the realm of low frame rate capture.

January 20th, 2009, 07:48 AM	#7
Claude Mangold Major Player Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Berlin and Geneva Posts: 259	Panning speed tables there's one for 35-mm on this site: Gecko-Cam there must be similar tables for 16mm and for 1/3 digital . I second Alex, try getting used to progressive shooting. your subjects will prefer the progressive look to any video look, after a short time. it's a great camera. (independently of the above: what Hardware / software are you using to view HD footage? there can be a codec problem with some)

January 19th, 2009, 09:16 PM	#3
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	im not worried about my shooting I can stop panning but in weddings everything moves and thats where im getting mu blurring Bouquet toss dancing etc. Maybe I need to sell my GY-hd100s and get something that does 60i

January 20th, 2009, 12:24 AM	#4
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	Why sell? shoot 24p at 1/48th. 60i is nearly as blurry during panning at 1/60th anyway. 24p will require operators to be less sloppy while shooting to be sure, but it's not any great feat to shoot well with 24p. 1. Keep pans 5 seconds or longer to cross from one side of the frame to the other. Or pan a little faster than you would with 60i, then hang on the subject for a little longer than you would with 60i. 2. Avoid empty pans! Pan with a person, cat, train, something from left to right or right to left. Non one notices blurry backgrounds and movement if there is a subject you are panning with. 3. 30p? Hate it. Especially when converted to DVD. DVD players generally don't know how to decode 30p DVD's well. Comes out as 24p (48 interlaced frames recombined to 24p) frames with 12 extra interlaced frames intermingled with the 24p frames. Ugly flexing DVD's that look worse than interlaced video. Shoot 24p or 60i. If you haven't tried all of the above, give them a try on your day off and give your camera a 2nd chance. You might like it. Don't forget editing and render times are going to be 50% less with 24p HDV than 60i HDV.

January 20th, 2009, 05:53 AM	#6
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	So cameras that are 60p or 6oi have the same problem? Like I said im not worried about me as much as my subjects. I can shoot static if I need too, its the subjects that I cant keep from moving if I wanted to. the thing is I think this camera was made for film where things dont really move ie talking heads for that this camera is perfect.

January 20th, 2009, 01:24 PM	#9
Randy Johnson Trustee Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Newark, Delaware Posts: 1,067	I will stay with it, Thanks! Randy

January 21st, 2009, 05:18 PM	#10
Stuart Nimmo Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Paris France Posts: 89	Randy, you lead a wild life! 'Studdery' shots would seem apt for weddings and Bouquet toss dancing.... Who says Brits and Americans speak the same language? It's down to the pan speeds Randy, keep them slow and short, or fast whip pans... err. Otherwise synchronize your pan speed with the moving subject so that they remain almost static in frame. Try zooming out as you pan, or let the subject exit a short buffered pan and then pick them up in a reframed shot. I always use a good pan-bar zoom control/ run/ cut switch. The German company "Bebob" make very good ones; they're not so expensive and make controlling all this very much more precise. Just be sure you order the right one for your lens, the stock lens takes an 8-pin zoom Fujinon command, broadcast lenses tend to take 12-pin commands.