Best Way to Import to FCP at DVinfo.net

Mark Cowherd · December 5th, 2008, 03:30 PM

Greetings,
I have a major project in the near future and am purchasing a Apple Tower and Final Cut Pro Studio for the editing. I will be shooting most of my productions on a gyhd250u. Is it best to have jvc deck firewired to comp or go sdi out to aja card to comp. Which way is best/easiest.
Many thanks,
Mark Cowherd

Tim Dashwood · December 5th, 2008, 03:54 PM

HD-SDI to AJA card as uncompressed or Prores422 would be best/easiest for capturing from tape but you would need a HDMI to HD-SDI converter (like the HD-Connect MI) to use the deck. Does your AJA card have RS-232 control? Maybe your AJA card has HDMI?
If you used the HD250 for playback & capture via HD-SDI then you would lack deck control and TC unless your card could either decode the VITC or accept external TC in on BNC.

The absolute quickest workflow through FCS is tapeless as HDV quicktime or m2t using the DR-HD100 or similar product. This way the "digitizing" stage is skipped and all you need to do is log the timestamped clips (or use ClipWrap to wrap m2t to mov.)

A product like Convergent-Design's Flash-XDR or NanoFlash would mate well with the HD250 for near lossless 4:2:2 tapeless capture via HD-SDI.

Mark Cowherd · December 6th, 2008, 05:30 PM

Tim,
Thank you so much for the post. I think I will go with deck and the HD- Connect MI converter to save the heads on my cam and I will be getting the DR HD100 also.
Btw, I love the dvd you made, I watch i monthly.
Happy Holidays
Mark Cowherd
GY HD250
Steadicam Flyer LE

Rich Rumppe · December 9th, 2008, 09:05 AM

Tim: Since I first started looking at the JVC camera you have been a great source of valuable information regarding this camera. I have the 200U, a JVC Br-HD-50 playback deck and a brand spankin new Apple MacPro Quad 8 core something or other, with Final Cut.
I love the ergonomics of the camera and the external switches. I shoot a lot of stuff for Fox where I hand over the tape and that's it, but I do a few projects every year where I have to edit the video.
I've read a lot of complaints on several different boards that there are serious problems trying to import JVC's flavor of HD into Final Cut. Especially Final cut 6.

Here's the big question. Can I rely on the firewire import method to get this footage into my computer. I'm not tied to 24p either, I can shoot 30p or 60p if that has less problems.
I would really not have to buy some kind of AJA board or something.

What import settings would work best in Final Cut.... Also I've heard that people have been having problems with the way FCP recognizes the camera breaks. You need to have a 8 second pre-roll for every shot.

If you have the time please address these rumors and maybe point me to the best settings and proceedures for importing JVC HD footage into Final Cut.

Your a Gem.....Thank You

Rich

Steve Oakley · December 16th, 2008, 11:29 AM

yes FCP 6 has problems capturing HDV 720p. its about 90-95% reliable, which is pretty bad when - please read this - using the HDV capture window.

if you use the FCP FW(HDV)->ProRes capture mode, you don't have deck control, but it will bring in all footage 100% reliablly.this mode basically puts the VTR in to play, and convert to prores on the fly. another note, this mode properly see the 24FPS TC, the HDV capture window sees the 24FPS TC as 30 ! that means any shot with a frame over 23 will not capture. you have to edit the logged clip so its frame is under 23. this mode will also create native 24FPS QT files which is a big benefit over using a video I/O card where its 59.94 fps. no JVC doesn't flag the frames like panasonic does, so there is no easy / fast / simple way to get native 24/30 fps moves back. it wastes a lot of drive space and doubles the data rate to play it.

I'd get a MXO2 if you really want to have a capture card. just trust me on this. its a very solid product for 720P capture.

Tim Dashwood · December 16th, 2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Oakley

no JVC doesn't flag the frames like panasonic does, so there is no easy / fast / simple way to get native 24/30 fps moves back.

Only on the HD-SDI output of the HD250.

Justin Ferar · December 16th, 2008, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Rumppe

I've read a lot of complaints on several different boards that there are serious problems trying to import JVC's flavor of HD into Final Cut. Especially Final cut 6.

Here's the big question. Can I rely on the firewire import method to get this footage into my computer. I'm not tied to 24p either, I can shoot 30p or 60p if that has less problems.
I would really not have to buy some kind of AJA board or something.

What import settings would work best in Final Cut.... Also I've heard that people have been having problems with the way FCP recognizes the camera breaks. You need to have a 8 second pre-roll for every shot.

I really don't understand what the fuss is all about. I digitize 720p30/60/24 every day and have never had an issue with digitizing HDV over firewire. It just works- no muss no fuss. The only thing that makes it different than digitizing standard DV is the fact that FCP creates a new clip for each start/stop. As long as you set the pre-roll to 1 sec in your capture device you only lose 1 second of the head of each clip. You should give yourself a 5 second head anyway!

This is using an 8 core with latest OS 10.5.6, FCP 6.05, and the JVC deck.

There is the odd shot that has a teeny dropout out (or an invisible one) where FCP wants to break it into two clips thus you lose that precious second. For those I just re-digitize the shot as ProRes via HDMI/RS-422 using Black Magic Intensity Pro.

Steve Oakley · December 16th, 2008, 05:50 PM

the fuss is about it doesn't work. this isn't operator error, or equipment not being to spec. I can run 2 or 3 tapes thru with no problems, then tape #4 will just be a pain. yes using top grade panasonic AMQ ( same as maxell BTW ). on average, on a 60 minute tape with 30-40 shots logged, I can count on 2-5 not loading, and thats AFTER cleaning up edit points with frames above 23. doing that fixes many of the capture errors.

really the only way FW capture is 100% is to use the FW->ProRes setup.

24/30/60 doesn't make a difference. FCP is WAY more sensitive to dropouts. case in point, I can load the _same_ tape on the _same_ VTR into Prem Pro without issue, except PP will flag the bad frames and you can actually see the drop outs. FCP OTH just barfs.

the problem with the video capture care route is you have 59.94 clips with no easy way to get to 24p native again.

the bugs in FCP's capture are very real, and quite repeatable. if it doesn't happen for you, then you are just lucky, its not the common experience out there.

Justin Ferar · December 16th, 2008, 06:40 PM

Steve- now that you mention it I can recall an instance or two where I would digitize a tape and then come back an hour later to find way too many breaks in the tape. In case that happens I just throw out the media and re-digitize the same tape which usually digitizes fine the second time.

Basically I digitize a tape every day during my lunch break and then again when I leave the office. It's been a long time- probably 5 months since I had to trash the media and redig a tape (JVC PRO HDV).

BTW- totally unrelated but about three years ago when we were shooting on the JVC 5000 cameras (standard def) we switched from DVCAM tape to Panasonic AMQ because it was being touted as a competitor to DVCAM. It was a total disaster- dropout city. I vowed never again to use Panasonic tape in JVC gear again.

Phil Balsdon · December 16th, 2008, 06:51 PM

I'd spend the money on a DR HD100 (or similar) rather than on a replay machine. In the very, very rare event that you have to transfer from tape you could use the camera. You'll save many hours in not having to digitise the tapes in real time. In almost 3 years I've not had a single problem with the hard drive, (had a few drop out problems with tape though).

I'm one of the few without the problems of transfers from the tape to FCP. Don't know why. You do need to follow the formula exactly to the letter though. When I do have to transfer from tape I find going direct to ProRes via firewire works best.

Clipwrap is also excellent if you have to work with m2t.

Todd Norris · December 18th, 2008, 10:23 AM

I concur with Phil. A Focus Enhancements DR-HD100 is a solution I've been using for over a year without any significant problems. You can set it to record Quicktime HDV, and then simply copy your files from it to your media drive at speeds much faster than real-time. And if there ever is a problem with the drive, you have a tape backup. I've found it to be a very elegant solution. My only problem has been that the DR-HD100 will shut down if it gets too cold or too hot.

Todd Norris

Alex Humphrey · December 18th, 2008, 03:23 PM

Tim! thanks for the headsup on the new gadget!

Yes to everyone else I had issues with Final Cut Studio 1 (FCP5?) and picked up a FE DTE100, and roll tape as backup. Havn't looked back. Capturing the 10 tape project i was working on was a snap. So the DTE saved the previously shot material and is the way I shoot from that time forward with tape as backup. Good thing on 1 115'f day in the sun... after 30 minutes started getting overheating alarms from DTE drive.. I guess it didn't like the direct sunlight. some said their themometers were saying it was over 120'f in the shade, and I was in the sun on a asphalt roof. So regardless it was hot and out of spec, and the JVC tapes performed flawlessly, (recaptured that night from tape to DTE then transfered to my FCS1 that is)

But yes, it's rediculous about FCP's capture problems/error rejections. Makes me want to try Premier Pro for a while when I get the suite for the newest Photoshop/after effects kit.

Greg Williams · December 29th, 2008, 09:41 PM

I have had my share of problems

Peter H. Ward · December 29th, 2008, 10:45 PM

I have to say, I've found FCS2 pretty reliable apropos native 720p capture. I've found it about as reliable as MiniDV at any rate. Far from prefect, but considering what one gets for the cost and considering the workflow is based on a flimsy consumer tape format, I think not bad at all. (Wait till a solid state device corrupts on you destroying everything in one go and you'll appreciate the dropouts.)

I'm skeptical that Premiere's apparent reliable is a good thing-could it just be that Adobe are using some kind of lossy error correction?

Yes, these cameras sucky in many ways-mine likes to eat tapes (do to an IDX battery-specific problem)-but, especially considering this is a JVC product after all, they actually work decent I think.

December 5th, 2008, 03:30 PM	#1
Mark Cowherd New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 16	Best Way to Import to FCP Greetings, I have a major project in the near future and am purchasing a Apple Tower and Final Cut Pro Studio for the editing. I will be shooting most of my productions on a gyhd250u. Is it best to have jvc deck firewired to comp or go sdi out to aja card to comp. Which way is best/easiest. Many thanks, Mark Cowherd

December 5th, 2008, 03:54 PM	#2
Tim Dashwood Wrangler Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Toronto, ON, Canada Posts: 3,637	HD-SDI to AJA card as uncompressed or Prores422 would be best/easiest for capturing from tape but you would need a HDMI to HD-SDI converter (like the HD-Connect MI) to use the deck. Does your AJA card have RS-232 control? Maybe your AJA card has HDMI? If you used the HD250 for playback & capture via HD-SDI then you would lack deck control and TC unless your card could either decode the VITC or accept external TC in on BNC. The absolute quickest workflow through FCS is tapeless as HDV quicktime or m2t using the DR-HD100 or similar product. This way the "digitizing" stage is skipped and all you need to do is log the timestamped clips (or use ClipWrap to wrap m2t to mov.) A product like Convergent-Design's Flash-XDR or NanoFlash would mate well with the HD250 for near lossless 4:2:2 tapeless capture via HD-SDI. __________________ Tim Dashwood

December 16th, 2008, 06:40 PM	#9
Justin Ferar Major Player Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Larkspur, CA Posts: 378	Steve- now that you mention it I can recall an instance or two where I would digitize a tape and then come back an hour later to find way too many breaks in the tape. In case that happens I just throw out the media and re-digitize the same tape which usually digitizes fine the second time. Basically I digitize a tape every day during my lunch break and then again when I leave the office. It's been a long time- probably 5 months since I had to trash the media and redig a tape (JVC PRO HDV). BTW- totally unrelated but about three years ago when we were shooting on the JVC 5000 cameras (standard def) we switched from DVCAM tape to Panasonic AMQ because it was being touted as a competitor to DVCAM. It was a total disaster- dropout city. I vowed never again to use Panasonic tape in JVC gear again. __________________ www.justinferar.com www.weddingsonfilm.com

December 6th, 2008, 05:30 PM	#3
Mark Cowherd New Boot Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 16	Tim, Thank you so much for the post. I think I will go with deck and the HD- Connect MI converter to save the heads on my cam and I will be getting the DR HD100 also. Btw, I love the dvd you made, I watch i monthly. Happy Holidays Mark Cowherd GY HD250 Steadicam Flyer LE

December 9th, 2008, 09:05 AM	#4
Rich Rumppe Tourist Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: United States Posts: 3	Importing JVC HD to Final cut w firewire Tim: Since I first started looking at the JVC camera you have been a great source of valuable information regarding this camera. I have the 200U, a JVC Br-HD-50 playback deck and a brand spankin new Apple MacPro Quad 8 core something or other, with Final Cut. I love the ergonomics of the camera and the external switches. I shoot a lot of stuff for Fox where I hand over the tape and that's it, but I do a few projects every year where I have to edit the video. I've read a lot of complaints on several different boards that there are serious problems trying to import JVC's flavor of HD into Final Cut. Especially Final cut 6. Here's the big question. Can I rely on the firewire import method to get this footage into my computer. I'm not tied to 24p either, I can shoot 30p or 60p if that has less problems. I would really not have to buy some kind of AJA board or something. What import settings would work best in Final Cut.... Also I've heard that people have been having problems with the way FCP recognizes the camera breaks. You need to have a 8 second pre-roll for every shot. If you have the time please address these rumors and maybe point me to the best settings and proceedures for importing JVC HD footage into Final Cut. Your a Gem.....Thank You Rich

December 16th, 2008, 11:29 AM	#5
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	yes FCP 6 has problems capturing HDV 720p. its about 90-95% reliable, which is pretty bad when - please read this - using the HDV capture window. if you use the FCP FW(HDV)->ProRes capture mode, you don't have deck control, but it will bring in all footage 100% reliablly.this mode basically puts the VTR in to play, and convert to prores on the fly. another note, this mode properly see the 24FPS TC, the HDV capture window sees the 24FPS TC as 30 ! that means any shot with a frame over 23 will not capture. you have to edit the logged clip so its frame is under 23. this mode will also create native 24FPS QT files which is a big benefit over using a video I/O card where its 59.94 fps. no JVC doesn't flag the frames like panasonic does, so there is no easy / fast / simple way to get native 24/30 fps moves back. it wastes a lot of drive space and doubles the data rate to play it. I'd get a MXO2 if you really want to have a capture card. just trust me on this. its a very solid product for 720P capture.

December 16th, 2008, 05:50 PM	#8
Steve Oakley Trustee Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: United States Posts: 1,158	the fuss is about it doesn't work. this isn't operator error, or equipment not being to spec. I can run 2 or 3 tapes thru with no problems, then tape #4 will just be a pain. yes using top grade panasonic AMQ ( same as maxell BTW ). on average, on a 60 minute tape with 30-40 shots logged, I can count on 2-5 not loading, and thats AFTER cleaning up edit points with frames above 23. doing that fixes many of the capture errors. really the only way FW capture is 100% is to use the FW->ProRes setup. 24/30/60 doesn't make a difference. FCP is WAY more sensitive to dropouts. case in point, I can load the _same_ tape on the _same_ VTR into Prem Pro without issue, except PP will flag the bad frames and you can actually see the drop outs. FCP OTH just barfs. the problem with the video capture care route is you have 59.94 clips with no easy way to get to 24p native again. the bugs in FCP's capture are very real, and quite repeatable. if it doesn't happen for you, then you are just lucky, its not the common experience out there.

December 16th, 2008, 06:51 PM	#10
Phil Balsdon Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 91	I'd spend the money on a DR HD100 (or similar) rather than on a replay machine. In the very, very rare event that you have to transfer from tape you could use the camera. You'll save many hours in not having to digitise the tapes in real time. In almost 3 years I've not had a single problem with the hard drive, (had a few drop out problems with tape though). I'm one of the few without the problems of transfers from the tape to FCP. Don't know why. You do need to follow the formula exactly to the letter though. When I do have to transfer from tape I find going direct to ProRes via firewire works best. Clipwrap is also excellent if you have to work with m2t.

December 18th, 2008, 10:23 AM	#11
Todd Norris Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Overland Park, Kansas Posts: 48	I concur with Phil. A Focus Enhancements DR-HD100 is a solution I've been using for over a year without any significant problems. You can set it to record Quicktime HDV, and then simply copy your files from it to your media drive at speeds much faster than real-time. And if there ever is a problem with the drive, you have a tape backup. I've found it to be a very elegant solution. My only problem has been that the DR-HD100 will shut down if it gets too cold or too hot. Todd Norris

December 18th, 2008, 03:23 PM	#12
Alex Humphrey Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: california North and South Posts: 642	Tim! thanks for the headsup on the new gadget! Yes to everyone else I had issues with Final Cut Studio 1 (FCP5?) and picked up a FE DTE100, and roll tape as backup. Havn't looked back. Capturing the 10 tape project i was working on was a snap. So the DTE saved the previously shot material and is the way I shoot from that time forward with tape as backup. Good thing on 1 115'f day in the sun... after 30 minutes started getting overheating alarms from DTE drive.. I guess it didn't like the direct sunlight. some said their themometers were saying it was over 120'f in the shade, and I was in the sun on a asphalt roof. So regardless it was hot and out of spec, and the JVC tapes performed flawlessly, (recaptured that night from tape to DTE then transfered to my FCS1 that is) But yes, it's rediculous about FCP's capture problems/error rejections. Makes me want to try Premier Pro for a while when I get the suite for the newest Photoshop/after effects kit.

December 29th, 2008, 09:41 PM	#13
Greg Williams New Boot Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Atlanta USA Posts: 12	I have had my share of problems

December 29th, 2008, 10:45 PM	#14
Peter H. Ward Tourist Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Astoria, NY Posts: 1	I have to say, I've found FCS2 pretty reliable apropos native 720p capture. I've found it about as reliable as MiniDV at any rate. Far from prefect, but considering what one gets for the cost and considering the workflow is based on a flimsy consumer tape format, I think not bad at all. (Wait till a solid state device corrupts on you destroying everything in one go and you'll appreciate the dropouts.) I'm skeptical that Premiere's apparent reliable is a good thing-could it just be that Adobe are using some kind of lossy error correction? Yes, these cameras sucky in many ways-mine likes to eat tapes (do to an IDX battery-specific problem)-but, especially considering this is a JVC product after all, they actually work decent I think.