Questions about good old 24p

[Jason McCormy]

I am involved in a debate, and I suppose the question is fairly simple, but I'm curious what you think about this.

Is it better to shoot in 720p60 or 720p24 if the output will be most likely a DVD, possibly even a print to film?

One of us believes that 720p60 converts well enough to 24 p that it is better to shoot in that with the hopes of also selling to a network for broadcast.

The other believes that native 720p24 handles motion better than 720p60 CONVERTED to 24p so since the target market will be DVD or film it is better to shoot 24p from the beginning.

What do you think? You will probably end up settling the dispute because I am hoping to sound really smart regurgitating your information:)

Crediting you for my research of course:)

[Alex Humphrey]

Well if you NLE is current, the 60p 1/60th shutter speed would be fine. That way if you HAD to have the REALTY show TV look, you have it and a decent 24p (via NLE).

HOWEVER

If you are basically going to DVD or Film etc. You will be MUCH happier if you shoot 24p at 1/48th or even 1/60th or higher if you wanted that look. Reason? Less render time and downconversion time etc. Easier work load for your computer and all in all a faster post process.

Basically 24p @ 1/60th to 24p DVD will look about the same as 60p 1/60th to 24p DVD. Yet 24p 1/48th with more controlled camera work (like any film camera) I agree would handle motion a little better (motion blurring) and save on render time.

Originally Posted by Jason McCormy

I am involved in a debate, and I suppose the question is fairly simple, but I'm curious what you think about this.

Is it better to shoot in 720p60 or 720p24 if the output will be most likely a DVD, possibly even a print to film?

One of us believes that 720p60 converts well enough to 24 p that it is better to shoot in that with the hopes of also selling to a network for broadcast.

The other believes that native 720p24 handles motion better than 720p60 CONVERTED to 24p so since the target market will be DVD or film it is better to shoot 24p from the beginning.

What do you think? You will probably end up settling the dispute because I am hoping to sound really smart regurgitating your information:)

Crediting you for my research of course:)

[Steve Oakley]

its a totally different look. 60P will look like video, 24P like film. DVD supports 24fps so you can save 20% on disc space or boost your encode data rate by 20%.

since video cameras are really 23.976, its not HMI safe so you have to shoot @ 1/60th to not get flicker when using magnetic ballasts. the look of 24fps @ 1/60th really is not the different from 24 @ 1/48th. just a little less motion blur. it does NOT look like 60P at all.

[Jason McCormy]

Thank you, that is kind of what I was thinking. I'm arguing with one of the editors about this. He seems to think it is better to have footage that is in a format for news in case a sale can be made. He says the conversion to 24p isn't much of a ball buster from 720p60. I think the should shoot in 24 p and just convert it if it needs to be sold as news footage.

The other caveat is that this is for a documentary that will have occasional fast motion suddenly and not planned. He says this further makes his point about 720p60. I think that it would be better to have it shot in 24p as it will look better on film than 720p60 on fast motion that is then dropped down to 24 frames.

Hmm. What a damn pain this is.

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Jason McCormy

Thank you, that is kind of what I was thinking. I'm arguing with one of the editors about this. He seems to think it is better to have footage that is in a format for news in case a sale can be made. He says the conversion to 24p isn't much of a ball buster from 720p60. I think the should shoot in 24 p and just convert it if it needs to be sold as news footage.

The only disadvantages with what your editor is suggesting is that there is more compression on each frame at 60fps and you wouldn't be able to use 1/48th shutter speed. Otherwise I actually agree with his logic. It is very very easy to pull 24P from 60P and I've done it on more than one occasion. (24P from 30P is almost impossible BTW.)
Not only will you have 60P for a broadcast news application but you can do overcranked slow-motion as well (if necessary.)

[Steve Oakley]

this editor is not too smart a card. sounds like trouble already and maybe finding another editor might be your best course of action because he really doesn't know what he's talking about. I'd say this is just the begining of your problems with the guy.

no you don't want to convert 60P-24P. its not going to look right. as for selling it to news, why would that mean 60P ? none. I've seen 30p and 24p news being done with some of the magazine shows.

for film out you really want to stay 24p. it will make life simple.

as for fast motion, 24P can certainly produce more judder then 60P. however, thats where knowing how to handle 24fps is important. its never really been a problem for me, but some people just don't like the 24fps look. that said, you can shoot 60P and slow it to 24P for slow mo effects which is quite cool. then there is 30P which I also like, and its a different look too.

while its easy to pull 24p from 60P, the problem is since the pulled frames aren't evenly spaced in time, faster motion will have a skipped looked to it.

in the end if your expected delivery format is DVD, online and possibly film, I'd stick with 24P. it'll make your life a lot simpler, and deliver a consistant look across deliverables. on the odd change it might get sold for news, they'll take what they get if the content is good. when it comes to news, content is king, format really doesn't matter. they put cellphone video on TV. changing the entire look for a theoretical sale is bad when you have at least one known format you will deliver too.

[Jason McCormy]

Ok,

The editor says that "Well, I'm fairly smart I think... maybe not though, my wife seems to think I'm a bit dim".

He then says that your correct, for news it does not matter as they will take cell phone footage and anything else that can be remotely considered video. But, he points out that this sudden motion we might capture is EXTREMELY fast and that really high quality video is exactly what we want in order to sell it.

Crap. I think perhaps that shooting 99 percent in the wrong footage for perhaps 1 percent of great footage is a bad idea. Hmm.

I'm going to experiment this weekend when I get a chance to borrow one of the 200's. Hmm.

Too bad their isn't a button to instantly change it to 60p.

[Jason McCormy]

Actually, I'll ask the question in context.

If you were out in the field with GI's in a combat environment, primarily shooting interviews but with the chance of really fast motion happening, what would you use?

[Carlos Rodriguez]

I've shot fast motion action in 24p, and it looks pretty good. q&d, on the fly, nothing planned, etc. heres a sample. make sure to watch in high quality

YouTube - the maven sessions

[Jason McCormy]

Great, that is fantastic. What was your shutter speed?

[Stuart Campbell]

I'm glad this question has come up as we are shooting a major scene in a commercial next week.

I've planned to shoot in 24p 1/48th as the scene is specifically designed to mimic film. We are shooting horses and riders in Napoleonic dress carrying out a cavalry charge which will be sent to a post house for some major roto work to turn the 6 horses into 60. The following day involves plenty of tanks charging around a firing range chasing our car as we shoot out of the back.

So, we've got a lot of fast movement, and plenty of static and slow moving shots so we've agreed to accept motion blur and work as hard as we can to avoid it. I'll also be shooting some scenes in 50p on a different roll to allow for some slo mo stuff.

Now, like Jason a number of broadcasters have requested footage for their shows. When we talk about 24p on hdv they all have a heart attack.

My main concern obviously is the scenes we shoot and final product for my client, not the broadasters who turn up to cover the event but it's a subject worth considering. Our ultimate output for this commercial is DVD and web streaming.

So...having read all of the above I'm now wondering whether shooting in 24p is the right thing to do. Would it be a better option to shoot 50p and convert to 24p in edit?

Is this really just much of a muchness?

I'm so glad this had come up!!!

Thanks Jason!!

[Jason McCormy]

Besten Dank Stuart,

I'm wondering if this might be an advantage of 60p. My editor says it converts very well. And that even though news groups will use anything, if you want cross promotional benefits, it doesn't hurt to have the footage look as good as possibly.

Hmm. If it is to just mimic the look of film, not actually get printed on it, and it is for broadcast, why not just ad film effects like from magic bullet?

[Nick Stone]

I'm starting to like the look of 24p. Hey Carlos what camera did you use to shoot in the YouTube sample? and what NLE did you use?

Nick

[Stuart Campbell]

Magic Bullet adds a few considerations as regards render times, cost etc. We're using 35mm lens adaptors so shooting this in 24p just seemed to be the natural thing to do. We also have the possibility of the commercial being sent to cinemas so whether they ask for a film print or an AVI yet I really don't know.

Do you know if 50p can easily convert to 24? Or does it only work well with 60? If it's really no problem I'll just go for the 50p all the way.

[Jack Walker]

Originally Posted by Stuart Campbell

Magic Bullet adds a few considerations as regards render times, cost etc. We're using 35mm lens adaptors so shooting this in 24p just seemed to be the natural thing to do. We also have the possibility of the commercial being sent to cinemas so whether they ask for a film print or an AVI yet I really don't know.

Do you know if 50p can easily convert to 24? Or does it only work well with 60? If it's really no problem I'll just go for the 50p all the way.

50 is 2.5 times 24 which makes conversion between the two mathematically natural.

50 converts to 25 naturally.

Then it can be played at 24 with the sound slowed down 4%.

Specifics regarding any particular project are best discussed with the post house that will be used.