JVC GY-HD101E 720p24 Capture in FCP 6.0.4 (Or any GY-HD10x version)

[Nick Papadopoulos]

Hello,

I know its been overdiscussed, but I have yet to find a definite answer for the following questions... Before you tell me to search the net, please know that I've spent about six 12-hour sessions looking for answers to these problems... I have read all FCP manuals, and searched through all of dvinfo and ccow for answers, yet I still have trouble figuring out a workflow, which I need for a project in a month...

1. Is there any way that Final Cut can capture footage (over firewire) from the GY-HD101E (720p24) with zero breaks? Why is this such a problem for FCP and premiere handles it without a hitch? (I have pre/post-roll set to 1 second to avoid excessive gaps).

2. Tried to capture prores via firewire. My question on this issue is:
Why time code for prores 422 captured from hdv via firewire (with footage shot as 720p24), was captured properly (:00 to :23). On the other hand the same footage captured as native hdv (with 23.98 selected as timecode in the device control preset), the timecode ACTUALLY captured was incorect (going from :00 to :29). Something interesting I discovered was that,720p24 clips with 29.97 timecode were offline re-captured overall "quite" accurately. On the other hand, when I switched the clips time code base to 23.98, the clips would be totally out of sync or worse could not be recaptured. Anyone know if this is a bug for sure, or just the way fcp works with 24p?

3. Is there any way to offline/online in the end (hopefully through firewire) or should I forget tape backup all together with this camera?

Warm Regards,

Nick Papadopoulos

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Nick Papadopoulos

1. Is there any way that Final Cut can capture footage (over firewire) from the GY-HD101E (720p24) with zero breaks? Why is this such a problem for FCP and premiere handles it without a hitch? (I have pre/post-roll set to 1 second to avoid excessive gaps).

Yes. It works fine if the tape recording is error free. FCP has a low-tolerance for errors when capturing HDV. I'm sure you've read already that the best results are with JVC's ProHD tape stock. Some people have had good luck with other brands. There is nothing you can do about start/stop breaks except to use REGEN TC and batch capture with preroll cueing into the previous clip.

Originally Posted by Nick Papadopoulos

2. Tried to capture prores via firewire. My question on this issue is:
Why time code for prores 422 captured from hdv via firewire (with footage shot as 720p24), was captured properly (:00 to :23). On the other hand the same footage captured as native hdv (with 23.98 selected as timecode in the device control preset), the timecode ACTUALLY captured was incorect (going from :00 to :29). Something interesting I discovered was that,720p24 clips with 29.97 timecode were offline re-captured overall "quite" accurately. On the other hand, when I switched the clips time code base to 23.98, the clips would be totally out of sync or worse could not be recaptured. Anyone know if this is a bug for sure, or just the way fcp works with 24p?

This has been a bug with FCP since 720p24 HDV support was added to FCP v5.1.2. TC is always read from the camera/deck as 30fps TC in the HDV log & capture window. You can change all your clips over to 23.98 fps TC easily but then you will have a problem if you ever want to batch capture from tape again.

Originally Posted by Nick Papadopoulos

3. Is there any way to offline/online in the end (hopefully through firewire) or should I forget tape backup all together with this camera?

Batch capture works fine but you must note the 24fps/30fps TC issue above.

[Nick Papadopoulos]

Thank you Tim,

You've been very clear and I only have one more question...

I'm actually using JVC HDV tape stock, and when I upgrade my camera's firmware i'm sure i'll solve the random gaps issue i'm (also) having, so the tape "should" be error free after that.

But putting all that aside, with proper scene breaks, is there any reliable workaround, such as for example, capture at a premiere station, convert the footage for fcp so that one can offline/online with premiere? Or ANY other sort of capture "workaround", which would in turn ignore scene breaks, while giving you the ability to offline/online without the gaps?

FCP, when set to ignore TC breaks, and set to notify only after capture, while the scene detect feature is off, it still goes to create new scene files (or shows me an error message)... so in the above question I was wondering if I can get around this, somehow elegantly? :)

Regards

[Nick Papadopoulos]

anyone know of a way?

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Nick Papadopoulos

...is there any reliable workaround, such as for example, capture at a premiere station, convert the footage for fcp so that one can offline/online with premiere? Or ANY other sort of capture "workaround", which would in turn ignore scene breaks, while giving you the ability to offline/online without the gaps?

There are a few alternative workflows.

1. Use a DR-HD100 to record to hard drive in QT HDV for immediate editing in FCP.

2. Capture m2t files manually with either DVHSCap or HDVxDV (or Premiere as you suggested) and then encode to Quicktime with MpegStreamclip (not ideal because TC is not maintained for future batch capturing.)

I will have details on a new workflow in about a week that will be far superior to #2 above.

[Nick Papadopoulos]

hey Tim...

Any news on that new workflow yet?

[Len Nowak]

Originally Posted by Tim Dashwood

There are a few alternative workflows.

1. Use a DR-HD100 to record to hard drive in QT HDV for immediate editing in FCP.

2. Capture m2t files manually with either DVHSCap or HDVxDV (or Premiere as you suggested) and then encode to Quicktime with MpegStreamclip (not ideal because TC is not maintained for future batch capturing.)

I will have details on a new workflow in about a week that will be far superior to #2 above.

Hi Nick,

I can understand your frustrations and you may take heart from the solutions I have found.

I capture using Back Magic's Intensity Pro capture card and ingest using ProRes 422 HQ via HDMI. The results are absolutely outstanding. You don't get to have batch capture, but that's a small price to pay when you are rewarded with break-free vision.

The card will also accept component inputs, but having the BR-HD50 deck enables me to ingest with HDMI. Check out Black Magic's web site at Blackmagic Design: Home

Using the DR-HD100 hard disk drive, as Tim illustrates is a solution. But the problem I found was when transferring vision to the hard drive from my tape deck, there was a constant 3 frame gap between the vision and audio. This was painfully re-synched manually for each clip. It's a bug in the hard drive which does not occur when it records direct from the camera. Focus Enhancements know about it.

As for the full package on these issues, I highly recommend Steve Mullen's JVC ProHD Handbook Digital Video Consulting

Good luck!

[Daniel Weber]

Originally Posted by Len Nowak

Hi Nick,

I capture using Back Magic's Intensity Pro capture card and ingest using ProRes 422 HQ via HDMI. The results are absolutely outstanding. You don't get to have batch capture, but that's a small price to pay when you are rewarded with break-free vision.

The card will also accept component inputs, but having the BR-HD50 deck enables me to ingest with HDMI. Check out Black Magic's web site at Blackmagic Design: Home

Len,

I am surprised to hear that this works. I called Black Magic's US office to see if the Intensity Pro would work with my JVC HD100 at either 720p24 or 720p30. I was told that it wouldn't work and that I would have to use the Extreme HD to get those frame rates. I am taking it that you are working at 720p25? Very interesting indeed.

Daniel Weber

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Nick Papadopoulos

hey Tim...

Any news on that new workflow yet?

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/jvc-pro-h...ming-soon.html

[Len Nowak]

Originally Posted by Daniel Weber

Len,

I am surprised to hear that this works. I called Black Magic's US office to see if the Intensity Pro would work with my JVC HD100 at either 720p24 or 720p30. I was told that it wouldn't work and that I would have to use the Extreme HD to get those frame rates. I am taking it that you are working at 720p25? Very interesting indeed.

Daniel Weber

Hi Daniel,

My workflows with the DR-HD100 hard disk drive were:

1. Copy vision from tape via BR-HD50 deck to DR-HD100 hard disk drive using standard firewire connection at 720p25.

2. Transfer data from DR-HD100 hard disk drive to computer hard drive via firewire. The resultant data was ingested as a series of Quicktime files of 1.8GB. This gave a workable solution, but the 3 frame sync issue still needed to be resolved. However if the tape were played out from the GY-HD111e camera direct into the DR-HD100 hard disk drive then this workaround resolved the sync issues.

As for the Blackmagic card, it will accept virtually anything you throw at it only limited by your computer. That includes 720p24 and 720p30. It provides the better solution for capturing vision on a Mac. You should be able to capture via the camera's component or tape deck component outputs connected to the Blackmagic Intensity Pro's component inputs. Please note that the Intensity Pro card only has both the component and HDMI inputs and outputs, whereas the vanilla version is only equipped with HDMI.

As you may be aware, your camera outputs at 720p60 via the component connection whereas it outputs at 720p30 via the firewire. This means you can use the appropriate Blackmagic default settings that's loaded into FCP ProRes 422.

Using the Blackmagic for 720p24, you would need to capture using DVCPRO HD 720p24, again another preset in FCP. For more on Blackmagic email support@blackmagic-design.com I have found them to be extremely supportive.

Len.

[Steve Oakley]

"Using the Blackmagic for 720p24, you would need to capture using DVCPRO HD 720p24, again another preset in FCP. "

that will not work. JVC doesn't tag the dupe frames the way panasonic does with DVCpro HD in the **SDI** stream. JVC on the video connections just spits out 59.94 video. OTH 422 device control works pretty well.

the problem with the prores via FW capture is that you might get the 24FPS TC, but no way to reload if you need to, at least not without a FCP7 bug fix, and thats a ways off. what I have not tried, and its worth trying, is to use the sony 24fps machine capture mode and see what happens. us a kona or BM card to capture via analog component. maybe with that setup you'll get honest 24P TC.

I've complained to apple and JVC about the 24->30 TC conversion and its pretty much on apple's end. here is the problem - if apple fixes it so that 24=24, then what do you do with your clips were captured as 24->30 with the wrong TC ? apple would need to tag the clips as being captured wrong, and if that metadata isn't part of the clip, then there is no simple fix. maybe a "compatibility" mode for capturing projects like this. its a real mess because the screwed it up to start with. really completely inexcusable in this day and age to let a bug like that out.

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Steve Oakley

"... if apple fixes it so that 24=24, then what do you do with your clips were captured as 24->30 with the wrong TC ?

It is very easy to change the TC base of existing clips in FCP. It is non-destructive change in meta-data. Just select all the clips, make sure TC Rate column is showing, right click on "30" in one of the columns and switch to 24. All selects clips will change the TC without issue. :00 is always :00 either way.

[Steve Oakley]

yes you can change the TC in the clip but - what about phantom frames of 24 thru 29 ? I know my edits don't sit on frame 00 by any intent.

actually it seems that FCP starts by adding 1 to frame 12, 2 to frame 13, ect. some odd offset counting method. point is, if you change the clips' TC after its in, recapture will become a problem because how can you magically convert your I and O points from base 30fps to base 24, right now. the answer is apply the reverse kludge apple used to create the mess, but it would require them to implement it as a compatibility fix. given what apple has been pushing out the door, I wouldn't bet on it.

back in the bad old days of film there where ways to deal with this, and in theory cinema tools should be able to handle a 30NDF match back to 24 like in film, but until proven it would work, is just and idea right now. you 'd have to export a EDL, run it thru CT, and then try a recapture back and see what happens. maybe some one with some time can try this with a few clips and see if it can be done.

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Steve Oakley

yes you can change the TC in the clip but - what about phantom frames of 24 thru 29 ? I know my edits don't sit on frame 00 by any intent.

Phantom frames don't actually exist in the JVC format on tape. Panasonic DVX100 yes... HD100 no.
JVC actually does use 24 base TC.
FCP skips counting frames to make up the difference because it thinks the TC is base 30 even though it realizes there are only 24 fps.

As the deck sends TC information to FCP, even though it is at the wrong rate, each whole second is still correct. :00 is still :00. It doesn't matter where your in point was on the clip because FCP handles the math. Your inpoint may be on a :15 frame in base 30 but FCP will know it should be :12. If your in-point is :29 FCP knows it should be :23, etc.

BTW, I believe the RS-422 on the deck does read and output the correct 24 fps TC. The problem is with firewire.