The future of HDV?

[Randy Johnson]

I dont mean to ruin anyones day but does it seem that HDV ws just a temporary format to be replaced by AVCintra or something else. I see hints of products coming out at NAB and everyone seems to be skipping HDV and aiming at more the higher markets.

[Liam Hall]

Any technology is just an interim measure until something better comes along. It's been like that since people etched the first pictures on cave walls. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Tim Dashwood]

Mpeg2 isn't going anywhere for a while. Sony has pretty much made that statement to the industry with its current lineup of XDCAM and HDV cameras, in addition to the fact that the digital broadcast networks use mpeg2 means it will be around for a long long time.

Since HDV is technically Mpeg2 recorded on DV tape, then yes you will probably see a trend towards less and less tape-based products and more solid-state or hard drive based recorders hitting the market. A camera that can't record HDV to tape can't legally be called a HDV camera, even though the data stream is exactly the same.

[Benjamin Hill]

Originally Posted by Randy Johnson

I dont mean to ruin anyones day but does it seem that HDV ws just a temporary format to be replaced by AVCintra or something else. I see hints of products coming out at NAB and everyone seems to be skipping HDV and aiming at more the higher markets.

Don't know what you're shooting and delivering with, but my production group acquires on HDV day in and day out and it has proven to be a very viable, economical way to transition to an all-HD workflow with numerous hardware and software solutions for upward mobility to broadcast.

[Randy Johnson]

I understand were going tapeless which is awsome and I dont mean to say that the tools we are using are out of date but at NAB this year there seems to be alot of talk about products that take the SDI & HD SDI outs to some form of external drive or card but not alot of firewire to a external device. Beyond what we already have of course. I think what makes me nervous is I have the GY-HD100 and most thing coming out are geared to the 200 and above with the higher end outputs.

[Stuart Campbell]

If we all didn't buy into a particular format because something better will be coming out in a year or two, we'd all have NOTHING!

We live in an age where technological developments happen at a lighting pace. We just have to be a little bit clever in our decision making when investing in equipment. As for HDV having no future, we find it more than adequate for our lower end budget clients productions, in fact the results are excellent. I see no reason for us to bin it over the coming years. As long as it keeps working, and as long as we can continue to keep getting it repaired we won't be replacing it.

If it ain't broke, don't mend it!

[Sean Adair]

Originally Posted by Liam Hall

Any technology is just an interim measure until something better comes along. It's been like that since people etched the first pictures on cave walls. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

Insert witty comment here:
And people are STILL etching on cave walls.
(sorry Liam - I've been itching to poke at your sig for ages!)

It's interesting how technology develops not only towards max quality, but also towards goals like affordability and portability. Cell phone video is over 50 years backwards in quality for instance. But the continued improvement of compression will put pressure on HDV as a standard. I don't expect it to have the life of DV for instance. Mpg4 (H264) is better, and tapeless acquisition is of course inevitable to dominate.

Although they seem similar, the FW (mpg2) stream recorders and the HD-SDI stream recorders (uncompressed, or near lossless codecs) are really very different animals. The former is a relatively cheap and quite efficient workflow with some compression caveats. The latter is a very expensive and resource heavy approach to eliminating those compression issues.

[Liam Hall]

Originally Posted by Sean Adair

Insert witty comment here:
And people are STILL etching on cave walls.
(sorry Liam - I've been itching to poke at your sig for ages!)

No need to apologies, it's about time someone tried some humor, last time I did I got banned from the RED forum:)

Anyway, I agree that FW and HD-SDI are very different beasts, but the technology/quality to price ratio will drop once solid state/hard disc recording takes over.

For me the biggest issue is sensor size. I think they'll be a whole host of affordable 1/2 inch cameras coming out real soon. Now, when is NAB?

[Bill Ravens]

Quite honestly, I can't wait for RAW. It seems like the only viable, format, albeit requires massive amounts of disk space. I am really getting to dislike anything GOP. Grading mpeg2 is frought with peril in the form of noise.

[Randy Johnson]

Im not sure I agree with the turnover rate of formats. I have been doing video for like 22 years I know technology moves fast but when S-VHS came out it last for 10+ years DV came out and it lasted for 10+ years. Its different now, theres alot more choices now and it seems like the market is trying to settle on a format.

[David Parks]

As tape starts to diminish as a acquisition format, I'm hoping that someone will wake up and build a soild state device that will acquire in a post codec like DNXHC, ProRes, Canopus HQ. Sort of what is proposed by Cineform.

I think the time has passed where camera codecs and post codecs aren't one in the same.

Cheers.

[Chris Leong]

Randy
Moore's law states that computers (and anything computerized) doubles its rate of evolution every two years. He said that in 1968, I believe.

At the last High Definition Summit meeting the announced the official "far away in the future" horizon at 300 days. In 2010, that same "far off" will be at 150 days.

Things are developing exponentially, not linearly.

Of course, that's just the technology. Add the human factor (like, for instance, Sony trying to get its own back over the world with its Blu Ray licensing fees, when combined with the rest of the world not wanting to pay those fees) and now you have, well, the human factor.

Old time paradigms are tumbling down, that's for sure. Ideas like formats, data compression, all that upon which we base our current judgment, are all changing at an exponential rate.

Corporations want things the old fashioned way, so they can continue to make things and sell them for profit. Other people, well, they want other things.

Within 300 days from now, you will be able to email a wavelet compressed 1900x1200 HD feature film with 7.1 sound to a friend. I personally saw this demonstrated last December.

Whether the movie companies, television and cable networks, and all the other associated business executives want you to do that for yourself is, of course, another story.

[Marc Colemont]

Originally Posted by David Parks

I think the time has passed where camera codecs and post codecs aren't one in the same.

Indeed, and choosing a format that will last for some time is getting tricky.
The client luckally wants most of the time a tape, DVD (or Blue Ray in the future).
For Media Servers used on Live shows, it is a nightmare already to keep up, as the customer expects to import whatever they bring along. I always have a rendering machine backstage, to import any format, and to convert it into a proper format for the media servers.
And I think that will be the only proper way to handle all the formats now and in the future. Having the tools around who can convert the files without image degration.

[Randy Johnson]

I seen transistional formats in the past and the way I see things panning out I cant help but think that HDV was just a transistional format. I mean Panasonic doesnt seem to be phasing out p-2 anytime soon, I think HDV was designed to be a temporary format(at least in a tape form) until the companys could get their tapeless stuff together which from the way I see it right now JVC is last. Right now Panasonic and Sony both have their own forms of tapless cameras where JVC is relying on a thrid party company.

[Chris Leong]

Agreed.
If one says that HDV means MPEG2 on miniDV tape (which it is) then when you take away the tape part of the equation then it's not HDV any longer, just MPEG2 Long GOP onto whatever memory is around. MPEG2 will be around for awhile.
I think that because of tape transport costs vs. solid state machines and the tape dropout factor, that HDV per se (i.e. with miniDV tapes), will eventually go away.
Look at DAT for audio. The PCM format is still with us, as are all the audio formats. The DAT tapes themselves, however...

Also, as post metadata requirements and compatibilities continue to progress, I also see the two formats (acquisition and post) as merging, depending, of course, on who owns the codecs...