Just Purchased a New HD200...Not What I Expected!

[Brian Luce]

Try swapping the lens.

[Jim Boda]

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

... Here's a link with test footage shot with both cameras. I uploaded the clips as .avi's, so the files are large. I don't expect many folks will want to take the time to download them, but for those that do, your feedback is appreciated. Please bear in mind that this test was not intended to be an adventure in cinematography ;)

http://www.devserv1.com/TestVids/vidTest.html

Well, my first reaction is that CAM 1 creates a noticable cleaner line on the bar handles on the dishwasher and oven...definitely less artifacts.

Without doing a side by side camparison...Cam 2 looks brighter. What are your iris settings for both cams?

[Diogo Athouguia]

The HD200 is a bit more light sensible than the HD100, if the same iris position is used on both cameras it is normal to have a brighter image on the HD200.

I have both cameras also, I never tried to change lenses... now I'm curious, I'll try it asap.

I also have different colour temperatures readings, I don't know which one is more accurate but I think I never had a readding bellow 3000k on the HD100... maybe it's the lowest it goes. I'm used to have different values on different brand cameras... but I also found it strange to have such a difference between my two JVCs. In fact I had some difficult matching their image settings.

Lee, your camera is damaged for sure. These cameras have a slight difference on their image, but not as you report. For me the HD200 is better, it handles the dark tones better.

[Lee Roberts]

Originally Posted by Jim Boda

Well, my first reaction is that CAM 1 creates a noticable cleaner line on the bar handles on the dishwasher and oven...definitely less artifacts.

Without doing a side by side camparison...Cam 2 looks brighter. What are your iris settings for both cams?

It really stinks that I don't have two identical systems to run the video side by side, and playback in Real Player is quite a bit different than WMP.

The iris setting was auto on both for this test. The cameras were set at the same height with the lenses virtually touching.

I'm not going to give away which one is which just yet. I will say that after I set the cameras up identically there was much less difference in the two images, but to my eye, there is still a winner. Given that the 200 has a 'better' processor, it should be clear.

Notice the difference in the first test when I went to AWB? Interesting......

I noticed a more than neglible amount of difference in the low light setting, too.

[Jim Boda]

Ok...I finally downloaded the clips...I was just taking a peak at a small sample online earlier.

I definitely like the warmer preset white balance on CAM 1. And like I said before, CAM 1 shows less artifacts w/ the straight lines. However, there is a different noise there in the darker scene that I don't like.

I'm not sure going "AUTO IRIS" is a good way to do the test.

Both CAMS have some DEAD PIXELS...Cam 2 has a really obvious one.

[Carl Hicks]

Hi Lee,

As Matt has pointed out, JVC Professional (US) does have a 30 day replacement policy, as you have read on the link below. If you feel that the camera is defective, please do not hesitate to call our Customer Care Center for assistance - 1-800-582-5825. Selece option 7. Keep in mind that the hours of operation are 9 AM to 5 PM Easterd Time, Monday thru Friday.

Originally Posted by Matt Ryan

I did not read every post but if you purchased your camera within the past 30 days you can utilize JVC's perfect experience program. The link to the site is: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/support/pepolicy.jsp

This program allows an exchange of your faulty camera for a brand new one. If you authorize jvc to charge your card the total amount temporarily to ensure your camera is sent back, JVC will send you your new camera next day(extremely fast). Once your faulty camera is received they will remove the charged amount. I have had my hd200 and 100 and both work perfectly. Your camera may just be faulty.

Hope this helps!

[Tim Dashwood]

I've only quickly scanned through this thread, and I don't have a lot of time right now, so I'll directly address Lee's originating post as best as I can. My apologies to anyone who may have already answered these questions.

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

I just received my new HD200 from my local dealer, brought it home, set it up next to my HD100 (with over 700 hours on the drum), and flipped them both on to begin calibration for a shoot scheduled for next week. Here's the deal:

- The first thing that caught my attention was the sound emitted by the HD200. I guess it has an internal fan, and it is LOUD. I can hear the camera from 3 feet away with no tape rolling -- just turned on and sitting there. By contrast, I can place my ear 2-3 INCHES from the HD100 and hear a faint 'whir'....It renders the on-board mic useless. Before anyone trashes me for even thinking about using the onboard mic for any 'serious' production, that isn't the point.....

Yes. There is a small fan at the back of the 200/250, in the bottom of the battery mount section. This fan kicks in sometimes, presumably to cool the components of the power supply. One of the the most common first-observations when using a HD200 or HD250 is the audible noise coming from this fan. I've even heard it kick in when outside during the winter.

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

- Next, I made certain the (2) cameras were set up identically in SD mode. I set the cameras side by side (the lenses were virtually touching), lit a scene, and white balanced the two cams using the manual trigger. HD100 recognizes 3200k (correct -- I was indoors and this is what I expected). HD200 registers 2500k. Say what?! repeat this procedure a couple of times -- sometimes the 200 WB @ 2500k, other times @ 2800k. HD100 never wavers. Since I'm using the same stock lens on both (no comments from the peanut gallery here, either!), I'm beginning to get a little irritated.

This another common observation when setting any two ProHD cameras side-by-side and manually/auto white balancing. Besides the fact that different lenses having different coatings (or other characteristics) may throw off the readings, there is also a calibration issue at hand here. My understanding is that the camera's feedback of "2800K" "3200K" "4200K" etc needs to be calibrated somehow to the actual readings. As far as I know this is first set at the factory but can be adjusted by the engineer at JVC when all the other calibrations are done. It seems that no two cameras are "exactly" set up the same with regards to this feedback system. The important thing to remember is that if you have pressed the AWB button and the white point has been set it is "correct" for that white source, even though your tungsten source may show up as 2800K instead of 3200K, those two cameras' signals will match. I suggest using an 18% grey card and angle it toward your light source.

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

I've got one monitor that has multiple inputs, so I hook up the 200 using video out (composite requires connectors I don't have), and the 100 using composite. I'm switching back and forth between the 2 images, and the 200 is so poor I figure I've done something wrong. Recheck everything -- no change. Okay, must be the video out. I hook up the 100 using the video out -- that's not it. Time to shoot something.

Since I'm not going to be using the supplied mic for the shoot, I figure I'll deal with the noise coming from the cam later. I shoot a couple of one minute tests on each cam -- zoom in, zoom out, pan. Simple, simple, simple. I take the footage, cap it, and play back the two tests. The resulting footage from the 200 is terrible. I zoom all the way in, and as soon as I begin to zoom out, the image degrades terribly (yes, I back-focused the lens). I have a $400 Handy Cam that shoots better. I try a couple of different tests, same result.

"Terrible" could mean quite a few things. I first assumed you meant that the image from the HD200 was "noisier" than the HD100. This is the second most common observation of the HD200 series cameras, and something I've spoken about before. I know it seems counter-intuitive since the HD200 series cameras have the new 14-bit DSP, but there is no doubt about it there is more noise in the lower IRE than there ever was on the HD100 series. Even on 0dB gain, with the gamma response turned down and the black crushed slightly you will see this noise.

You mention that zooming the lens out the image "degrades." Do you mean it loses focus? This is back-focus, and if that is happening then back-focus is not set properly. Make sure the lens is not in macro mode, then make sure you open the aperture all the way to F1.4 and put your chart about 15 feet away from the camera. Zoom in and front focus, zoom out and back focus, repeat, then lock the back focus ring.

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Okay, now I want to know if it’s the glass in the 200. I swap lenses. Oops! This doesn’t work. The new lens will work in the 100, but the 100’s lens will not work on the 200. Except for a small ‘B’ marking on one lens and an ‘E’ marking on the other, the lenses appear to be identical. Well, they aren’t. I quadruple check the mounts….the lens from the 100 will not work on the 200 – period.

I'm not sure what you're talking about here. The mounts are EXACTLY the same and any lens that works on one will work on the other. I swap lenses and accessories between the HD100/110/200/250 all the time.
The obvious thing to check for is damage to the mount. Is anything bent? Is there a metal shard inside the mount anywhere that won't allow it to sit flush?

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

My dealer is closed, but I’ve got the number to an employee. I ring him up and ask what to do. He says, “Hey, no problem. We’ll send the camera in for repair.” Don’t think so, buddy. I don’t have 20 minutes on the drum and I’m going to have to send it in for multiple repairs? I say I’m not comfortable with that. He asks what I want. I say a new camera. He says he doesn’t think JVC will do that. I say refund. He says he doesn’t think his store does that, but he’ll check.

Maybe I’ve done something wrong here, and if anyone knows what it might be, please enlighten me. I’ve got an (8) day shoot that starts Tuesday. I’ve got talent flying in from several cities. I tried to get the camera earlier so I would have ample time to perform these tests, and my dealer said that he could have the 200 in two days, but JVC ‘dropped the ball’ (he said), so I ended up getting the camera 5 or 6 days later than expected.

So now I’ve got all these two camera scenes planned and only one camera. My dealer does not have an extra anything, so I’m in a bit of a predicament. If anyone has any pull with JVC, I would sure appreciate a little help here.

Best ~ Lee
.

I can't really comment on the policies of your dealer. We heard every kind of story possible from amazing personal experiences with dealers (like mine) to horror stories. JVC seems to step-in in the latter case when necessary, but for the most part you are the customer and it is in your dealer's best interest to take care of you.

[William Hohauser]

After looking at the footage I can only make a few comments.

- Clip 1 has a little more problems with diagonal lines and alias artifacts than clip 2.

- Clip 2 is slightly murkier in image quality to clip 1. And slightly noisier to clip 1.

- White balance is eventually better in clip 1.

I am not seeing the "degrading image" mentioned before although the aliasing is annoying. Please try the same tests in HDV and post some full-res stills. I am curious if the aliasing is a product of the in-camera downconversion to DV resolution.

[Lee Roberts]

Okay, enough fun....

Here's what JVC and my dealer have done:

- JVC had no problem with the overnight replacement. The 'full-time-fan' is not normal...

--BUT--

- There are apprently no more 200's available until about the 1st week in April. As in JVC would overnight one if they had it, but there are some mods being made and they simply have no stock.

- My dealer has gotten a 250 for me to use for my shoot.

Cam 1 is the 100. Cam 2 is the 200.

Thank you all for your input. I think my expectations will be more in line with reality when I receive the new cam, though I will be disapointed if, ultimately, I can't tweak the 200 to perform better than the 100. With that said, they said they would be happy to swap the 200 for a 110 should that be the case.

Thanks again,

Lee

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

-There are apprently no more 200's available until about the 1st week in April. As in JVC would overnight one if they had it, but there are some mods being made and they simply have no stock.

I wonder if a 200A is in the works for NAB? And, I wonder what could/would be improved?

Steve

[James Thirston]

Originally Posted by Lee Roberts

Okay, enough fun....
- JVC had no problem with the overnight replacement. The 'full-time-fan' is not normal...
Lee

Well I'm a little alarmed at that because I've had my 200 for just one week and although the noise from the fan is barely noticeable, I am a little worried that the fan is actually always on regardless of temperature. Lee, is JVC saying that the fan is not supposed to be on all the time?

Also something I had not heard about until now, is this whole thing about the image quality from the 200 not being as good as the 100?? What gives?? I thought a 14bit processor with the better signal to noise ratio would have yielded a better image - at least that's what I thought when I decided to pay the extra $2,000 for the 200 model!!!

I don't own a 100 to do a side by side comparison and now quite concerned about this. I can't compare it to my Canon XH-A1 because the Canon is obviously superior to the Pro-HD image resolution.

Don't get me wrong I'm not having buyer's remorse, I love the HD-200's ergonomics however, is the difference in picture quality between the 100 & 200 just a one off case with Lee's camera or a documented fact??


JT

[Brent Kolitz]

Originally Posted by James Thirston

Well I'm a little alarmed at that because I've had my 200 for just one week and although the noise from the fan is barely noticeable, I am a little worried that the fan is actually always on regardless of temperature. Lee, is JVC saying that the fan is not supposed to be on all the time?

James -- I'm curious about this as well. I can assure you that my HD200's fan is ALWAYS on, from the second you flip on the power switch until the moment you turn it off. It never seems to vary in speed or sound -- it's clearly noticeable (and surprised me at first), but it's not objectionable. I've pretty much only used the camera indoors, at an ambient temp of around 75 degrees, so I can't say whether it would rev up at a higher temp or even shut off at a much lower temp. But I'd like someone in the know to confirm that this is normal operation for the fan.

[James Thirston]

The sound of the fan does not bother me at all because weddings are usually fairly raucous affairs, but even in the quietness of my studio I barely notice the fan running. As soon as I got the camera I took one look look at that Fisher Price mic that came with it and replaced it with my Rode NT1 which could explain why I'm not hearing any Iris or fan noises in my footage.

I'm more concerned about what Lee and others were saying about the quality of the image between the two Pro-HD models. I just looked on the JVC site and it clearly states that the new 14bit processor is supposed to have better handling of noise in low light and better highlight handling.

Well in terms of low light handling my Canon XH-A1 is a whole stop more sensitive & less noisy, however I can deal with that by slowing the shutter down to 1/25. The real disappointment for me is the highlight handling because it shows that terrible purple fringing on blown highs akin to what I'm used to seeing on my DVX100. If it weren't for the HD-200 ergonomics which I love, I would have bought another XH-A1.

On the plus side, after shooting my first wedding with the 200 last weekend I can say that I'm really pleased with how 50P looks when it is slowed down!

JT

[Paolo Ciccone]

Originally Posted by James Thirston

Also something I had not heard about until now, is this whole thing about the image quality from the 200 not being as good as the 100?? What gives?? I thought a 14bit processor with the better signal to noise ratio would have yielded a better image

James, like many thing regarding our trade, this is my personal interpretation so takes it for it is. When I talk about image quality I don't refer to grain or noise issues. For what I can see both the HD100 and the HD200 have the same quality there. I did a lot of calibration with these cameras and the image quality that I refer to is related to calibrating the cameras for a 1:1, neutral, recording of a scene. Cameras come out of the factory with given configurations that are not necessarily designed for a neutral recording of reality. All scene files in the JVC ProHD cameras have a bias of some sort. Regardless, there is a starting point in the color matrix from where you do the adjustments that ill cause each color chip on a DSC chart to fall in the right place. With the HD200 the matrix is skewed in the blue/cyan area in a way that the HD100 doesn't show. The skewing is asymmetrical, it doesn't show in the red/yellow/magenta area. This makes it hard to calibrate the HD200 accurately because moving one element in the RGB matrix influences the others so you can just go so far with the skewed portion before you introduce excessive alterations in the red/yellow portion that.
I thought that this problem was caused by the specific model of 250 that I tested but I got reports from DSC and others that this phenomenon is shared by all HD250.
This might not be a huge issue but I personally like the HD100 better. The 250 of course has features that are not available on the older model and that is really the reason for the price difference.

[Brian Luce]

Originally Posted by James Thirston

Well in terms of low light handling my Canon XH-A1 is a whole stop more sensitive & less noisy, however I can deal with that by slowing the shutter down to 1/25. The real disappointment for me is the highlight handling because it shows that terrible purple fringing on blown highs akin to what I'm used to seeing on my DVX100. If it weren't for the HD-200 ergonomics which I love, I would have bought another XH-A1.


JT

Got some more info on you hd200/xh-a1 comparison? Image wise.