Grainy awards at DVinfo.net

Eric Ramahatra · November 29th, 2007, 04:20 AM

i don't know for anybody else but on my HD200, i've never had so much grain (noise) even in daylight situations !

A while ago, i had an indoor shot very clear but i don't remember on earth what kind of settings i used.

Today, with 0db gain (of course), -3 at master black and other settings wich would affect noise, i always had noise especially in dark tones.

I tried TC3 and other scene recipes without success... When i see those pictures from others, i really think my camera has a problem ! or may be i'm very bad with the setup.... or it must be something else (someone told me a wrong backfocus may overboost noise... can't understand that !)

Where is the magic button ? :-)

Ralph McCloud · November 29th, 2007, 08:28 AM

Is this grain occuring when you have your Redrock M2 attached? If so, it might be that your M2 isn't turned on, and that's where your grain is coming from.

Paolo Ciccone · November 29th, 2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Ramahatra

Today, with 0db gain (of course), -3 at master black and other settings wich would affect noise, i always had noise especially in dark tones.

I wouldn't use master Black at -3, that is likely to give you more problems in dark areas. Try setting it at 0.

Eric Gulbransen · November 29th, 2007, 11:30 AM

Eric, rest easy it's probably not the camera. I shot THIS test one day and wanted to stab myself in the eye with an ice pick. Then I shot THIS test a couple of weeks later and began to settle down. Same camera, same shooter, different settings & adjustments/better back-focus/less zoom/more tests/started writing things down which gave me a better understanding of this camera.

Noise used to be one of my biggest gripes - low light or daylight, I could screw up any shot you gave me. I used no gain, had detail at minimum, did the pee pee dance and everything - nothing helped. Now finally things are different. Of course I'm blind in one eye by now, but it only takes one eye to shoot ; )

Here is a FRAME GRAB which was shot with your camera (same camera, and shooter, as the first test-shot in this post of the kid on the beach) - including the settings used to take it. Hope it helps, and keep any ice picks out of reach in the mean time!

Eric, watch Paolo's back-focus tutorial video

ps - not only do I have detail set back at normal these days, as you can see, but I also have even used GAIN (once!).

Hey Paolo, keep the shiny side up

Sean Adair · November 29th, 2007, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paolo Ciccone

I wouldn't use master Black at -3, that is likely to give you more problems in dark areas. Try setting it at 0.

Hi Paolo. On your HD200/250 true color settings page, you have master Black at -3
http://www.paolociccone.com/TrueColor-HD250-part2.html
Have you had second thoughts, or updated this? Or is it just for noise prone situations (eg. large areas of solid dark tones that stress the mpg2 codec) that you'd change this?
I know for the HD100 you recommend master black at normal. But as we know the 200 has some quite different characteristics.

Eric Ramahatra · November 29th, 2007, 06:29 PM

Hi Ralph,

All my noisy pictures are with or without the M2 attached: with, it's just a bit soft because of narrow focus and seems to boost the grain in those soft areas because of details lack. But without, it doesnt change anything.
One time on my first M2 use, i forgot to turn the power on so there was some grain, but they don't "dance", it's some fixed grain from the groundglass. But here it's not that problem at all.

Eric,
Jesus, the pic from the wedding is incredible !
I can't believe my camera could do that !

Here are some frame grabs from an event, without the M2 attached,
If i remember, this was the setting:
- 0dB,
- master Black -3, strech 0, compress 0,
- detail normal,
- cinema off, matrix standard, gamma standard, level min
- color matrix 0,0,0,0,0,0

http://www.tophos.com/images/hd200/vlcsnap-207849.jpg
http://www.tophos.com/images/hd200/vlcsnap-210593.jpg
It seems that i also have the worst Mpg compression i've never seen !

I would definitely try your settings and will post some frames between yours and the TC3 ones.

Would the backfocus affect noise ?

Eric Gulbransen · November 29th, 2007, 08:01 PM

I can't see how backfocus would affect noise either, but something sure has changed since I started taking it seriously.

Baby in tux

Tracy

Paolo Ciccone · November 29th, 2007, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Adair

I know for the HD100 you recommend master black at normal. But as we know the 200 has some quite different characteristics.

Yes, I think that the setting of -3 was a little too aggressive. I mean, I like a very contrasty picture but that might not be everyones taste. The fact is, a scene file should be always considered a starting point and verified with you camera because often two cameras, of the same model, react differently. It's so easy to change that parameter that it's really worth your time to simply shoot the same scene with both settings and see which one works best.

Bill Ravens · November 29th, 2007, 08:10 PM

ya kn ow..

you guys are too much...
I LOVE the settings you come up with!!
DSC charts are a little too rich for my budget, but, when you post your results, we all benefit.
I'm so so so greatful...thanx!!!

Eric Ramahatra · November 30th, 2007, 05:19 AM

great, thank you everyone, i started with the backfocus adjustment and now my pictures are very crisp !
I will post some clips using TC3. Thanks Paolo

regards.

November 29th, 2007, 04:20 AM	#1
Eric Ramahatra Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Paris Posts: 72	Grainy awards i don't know for anybody else but on my HD200, i've never had so much grain (noise) even in daylight situations ! A while ago, i had an indoor shot very clear but i don't remember on earth what kind of settings i used. Today, with 0db gain (of course), -3 at master black and other settings wich would affect noise, i always had noise especially in dark tones. I tried TC3 and other scene recipes without success... When i see those pictures from others, i really think my camera has a problem ! or may be i'm very bad with the setup.... or it must be something else (someone told me a wrong backfocus may overboost noise... can't understand that !) Where is the magic button ? :-) __________________ JVC HD200+redrock M2+1.4 lens+steadicam Flyer mini35 weddings

November 29th, 2007, 08:28 AM	#2
Ralph McCloud Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Myrtle Beach, SC Posts: 80	Grain Is this grain occuring when you have your Redrock M2 attached? If so, it might be that your M2 isn't turned on, and that's where your grain is coming from. __________________ Myrtle Beach SkyTour http://www.myrtlebeachskytour.com

November 29th, 2007, 06:29 PM	#6
Eric Ramahatra Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Paris Posts: 72	Hi Ralph, All my noisy pictures are with or without the M2 attached: with, it's just a bit soft because of narrow focus and seems to boost the grain in those soft areas because of details lack. But without, it doesnt change anything. One time on my first M2 use, i forgot to turn the power on so there was some grain, but they don't "dance", it's some fixed grain from the groundglass. But here it's not that problem at all. Eric, Jesus, the pic from the wedding is incredible ! I can't believe my camera could do that ! Here are some frame grabs from an event, without the M2 attached, If i remember, this was the setting: - 0dB, - master Black -3, strech 0, compress 0, - detail normal, - cinema off, matrix standard, gamma standard, level min - color matrix 0,0,0,0,0,0 http://www.tophos.com/images/hd200/vlcsnap-207849.jpg http://www.tophos.com/images/hd200/vlcsnap-210593.jpg It seems that i also have the worst Mpg compression i've never seen ! I would definitely try your settings and will post some frames between yours and the TC3 ones. Would the backfocus affect noise ? __________________ JVC HD200+redrock M2+1.4 lens+steadicam Flyer mini35 weddings

November 30th, 2007, 05:19 AM	#10
Eric Ramahatra Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Paris Posts: 72	great, thank you everyone, i started with the backfocus adjustment and now my pictures are very crisp ! I will post some clips using TC3. Thanks Paolo regards. __________________ JVC HD200+redrock M2+1.4 lens+steadicam Flyer mini35 weddings

November 29th, 2007, 11:30 AM	#4
Eric Gulbransen Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 520	Eric, rest easy it's probably not the camera. I shot THIS test one day and wanted to stab myself in the eye with an ice pick. Then I shot THIS test a couple of weeks later and began to settle down. Same camera, same shooter, different settings & adjustments/better back-focus/less zoom/more tests/started writing things down which gave me a better understanding of this camera. Noise used to be one of my biggest gripes - low light or daylight, I could screw up any shot you gave me. I used no gain, had detail at minimum, did the pee pee dance and everything - nothing helped. Now finally things are different. Of course I'm blind in one eye by now, but it only takes one eye to shoot ; ) Here is a FRAME GRAB which was shot with your camera (same camera, and shooter, as the first test-shot in this post of the kid on the beach) - including the settings used to take it. Hope it helps, and keep any ice picks out of reach in the mean time! Eric, watch Paolo's back-focus tutorial video ps - not only do I have detail set back at normal these days, as you can see, but I also have even used GAIN (once!). Hey Paolo, keep the shiny side up

November 29th, 2007, 08:01 PM	#7
Eric Gulbransen Major Player Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Palo Alto, California Posts: 520	I can't see how backfocus would affect noise either, but something sure has changed since I started taking it seriously. Baby in tux Tracy

November 29th, 2007, 08:10 PM	#9
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	ya kn ow.. you guys are too much... I LOVE the settings you come up with!! DSC charts are a little too rich for my budget, but, when you post your results, we all benefit. I'm so so so greatful...thanx!!!