Should I still use HD tapes for DV?

[Alex Wren]

Hi,

Reading posts on tape stock I can see that the general advice is to use JVC pro tapes. Do you think I should use JVC DV tapes for SD and JVC HDV tapes when in HD mode? Is it ok to swap between these assuming they are both from JVC?

The following link is for a UK supplier of JVC HDV tapes. Does anyone know any suitable DV versions from JVC?

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/publi...r=jvc_m63prohd

If anyone knows a cheaper supplier then please let me know.

[David Scattergood]

Originally Posted by Alex Wren

Hi,

Reading posts on tape stock I can see that the general advice is to use JVC pro tapes. Do you think I should use JVC DV tapes for SD and JVC HDV tapes when in HD mode? Is it ok to swap between these assuming they are both from JVC?

The following link is for a UK supplier of JVC HDV tapes. Does anyone know any suitable DV versions from JVC?

http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/publi...r=jvc_m63prohd

If anyone knows a cheaper supplier then please let me know.

That's where I get those same tapes from Alex.
I use them for SD and have no problems using them.
I cannot confirm whether you should use SD tapes for SD and HDV tapes for HDV...can't think why it would be an issue though.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Alex Wren

Hi,

Reading posts on tape stock I can see that the general advice is to use JVC pro tapes. Do you think I should use JVC DV tapes for SD and JVC HDV tapes when in HD mode? Is it ok to swap between these assuming they are both from JVC?.

In terms of recording, there is no difference between DV and HDV. The so called HDV tape is simply better quality tape which helps minimize drop-outs. The theory being that DO will be more destructive with inter-frame compression.

I've heard that HD1 is coded differently than HD2 with HD1 scattering data over a block so a DO should never cause anything more than blocking. Supposedly, HD2 doesn't do this which is why Sony brought-out "HDV" tape. I'm not sure I believe this.

PS1: I'm working with JVC's GZ-HD7 which can record 1440x1080 at 27Mbps CBR. Amazingly, it clones via FireWire to a Sony HDV VTR. Which suggests the 25Mbps data rate for HD2 was chosen simply to get 1 hour of tape.

PS2: Could we get please have "GZ-HD7" added to "Affordable 3-chip High Definition Acquisition." This is a sleeper HD camcorder that -- with the right software -- provides 720p60 files. With recording to harddisk (60GB) or SD card (25 minutes) you have a very nice B camera.

[Tim Dashwood]

If you don't plan on shooting HDV, ever, then by all means use whatever quality tape stock works for DV.

If you switch back and forth between HDV and DV shooting then I would suggest sticking with high quality HDV tape no matter what. Why risk contaminating your heads?

[Tom Hardwick]

So you film for an hour, capturing sights and sounds galore. You rewind the tape and are ready to transfer the footage. Oddly enough your DV tape doesn't contain any pictures or colours or audio or meta data - all it has is a digital bit-stream of ones and zeros. That file will be read by the camera’s rotating heads, sent down the firewire and recorded onto your computer’s hard disc. The digital file is then read and interpreted on screen as a mass of pictures and lots of stereo sound though quite often the meta data is ignored.

So the answer to Alex's original question is that if you can physically fit the tape cassette into your tape deck then you can use it to record in any format you can think of: DV, DVCAM, HDV, DVCPRO, interlaced, progressive, PAL, NTSC, colour, b & w, 5 fps, 150 fps. It matters not a jot, it's digital.

tom.

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

So you film for an hour, capturing sights and sounds galore. You rewind the tape and are ready to transfer the footage. Oddly enough your DV tape doesn't contain any pictures or colours or audio or meta data - all it has is a digital bit-stream of ones and zeros. That file will be read by the camera’s rotating heads, sent down the firewire and recorded onto your computer’s hard disc. The digital file is then read and interpreted on screen as a mass of pictures and lots of stereo sound though quite often the meta data is ignored.

So the answer to Alex's original question is that if you can physically fit the tape cassette into your tape deck then you can use it to record in any format you can think of: DV, DVCAM, HDV, DVCPRO, interlaced, progressive, PAL, NTSC, colour, b & w, 5 fps, 150 fps. It matters not a jot, it's digital.

tom.

Thanks Tom, for cutting through this voodoo about HDV quality tape v DV quality tape... its all zeros and ones ! My $3.00 Costco tapes from TDK record exactly the same as $12.00 HDV.

[Tim Dashwood]

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

...if you can physically fit the tape cassette into your tape deck then you can use it to record in any format you can think of: DV, DVCAM, HDV, DVCPRO, interlaced, progressive, PAL, NTSC, colour, b & w, 5 fps, 150 fps. It matters not a jot, it's digital.

I'm afraid it's not that simple Tom, especially when dropouts and data corruption are a serious problem for long-GOP MPEG2 streams.
Browse through the many posts regarding temporary data loss in any of the HDV camera forums and you'll quickly understand why data integrity is so much more important with HDV than it ever was with DV's intraframe recording systems.

[Tom Hardwick]

C'mon Tim, I know all that. You say, 'dropouts and data corruption are a serious problem' but I can assure you they're not when I use my Z1 in the HDV mode and feed it many times recycled Sony Premiums. You can't get tape much cheaper than this. Hands up all those out there with this serious problem.

Of course you'd expect more expensive tape to have more frequent line inspection, less sales, less dropout, be available less widely, have a tougher case and hopefully have greater longevity. If this brings you peace of mind then that has to be a good thing.

tom.

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Could we get please have "GZ-HD7" added to "Affordable 3-chip High Definition Acquisition."

Done, it's online now at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=156 but it went into the Consumer HD category.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Done, it's online now at http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=156 but it went into the Consumer HD category.

Thank you! It is being sold by the consumer division so that's it's proper place.

PS: About tape. Although DV, HDV, and DVCPRO HD use NRZI recording -- it's all zero and ones -- I agree completely with Tim that the risk factor suggests that paying more is a good idea.

[Howard Flagler]

Originally Posted by Tom Hardwick

So the answer to Alex's original question is that if you can physically fit the tape cassette into your tape deck then you can use it to record in any format you can think of: DV, DVCAM, HDV, DVCPRO, interlaced, progressive, PAL, NTSC, colour, b & w, 5 fps, 150 fps. It matters not a jot, it's digital.

tom.

Am I reading this right? A cheap Sony DVM60 Premium DV cassette will record both DV or HDV? So if I find myself in a bind with no high quality HDV tape, I can just run to my local Walgreens and get a cheapo tape and I am good to go for HDV recording?

[Diogo Athouguia]

I usually use the cheapest JVC tapes for DV with no problems so far, but when I use them for HDV 50p recording I have a lot of drop-outs. I use JVC HDV tapes or the Panasonic AY-DVM63PQ. You should stick to one brand, JVC, Panasonic and Fuji are the same, but if you use these tapes NEVER put a Sony one on your camera.

[Howard Flagler]

Originally Posted by Diogo Athouguia

You should stick to one brand, JVC, Panasonic and Fuji are the same, but if you use these tapes NEVER put a Sony one on your camera.

Why not Sony? What if I already did?...Is Sony bad?

[Tom Hardwick]

Howard, you're reading that right. Would I lie to you? I use Sony Premiums in my Z1 to record HDV, and I recycle them endlessly. I won't let any other brand of tape near its tape deck mind you.

I have had very rare dropouts, sure. And you can pay 7x (or so) the price for DVM63 'digital HD video' tapes. Dropouts will be just as damaging, it's just that in paying 7x the price you'd hope there would be some sort of higher quality control.

tom.

[Marc Colemont]

Tom, it's not about that you would lie.
My five cents; It's just a dangerous game using your tapes endlessly.
In the end you will loose money saving it now on a few bucks of tape.
A few years ago a collegue and I were doing multiple jobs together with the same Sony camera's. He used over and over his tapes saying no worries it works all he time.
The end-result: He got in trouble on a few jobs were he started to have lost footage in DV. I had to open his camera and cleaned his videoheads manually as the cleaning tapes could not handle it anymore. I did check my camera aswell, and it was not showing those dirty video heads. Both of us were using the same brand of tapes.

So now on jobs were I work together with other people I simply demand they are using new tapes. Firstly I don't want to wear out my videoplayer with overused tapes. And secondly I don't want to end-up telling a customer I have lost footage, because someone used old tapes.