New GR-HD1 footage posted

Dennis Adams · May 16th, 2003, 07:11 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : With the right graphics card, I think you could play your WM9 movie directly to an HD projector. -->>>

Steve:

Seems reasonable, via the DVI or VGA connections. I'm sure some of the Home Theater PC (HTPC) folks are already trying this. I haven't been on the HTPC forums lately. The new Terminator 2 Extreme DVD (coming out soon?) has an HD WMV disc, currently only playable on PCs, and also on the forthcoming WMV DVD players.

///d@

Bob England · May 16th, 2003, 09:38 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Bob England : Just to see if it'd work I loaded all 3 clips into Vegas 4. -->>>

I haven't installed Vegas 4 yet on my PC so I have a couple of questions.

Did it import the TS files directly?
-->>>

Yes, they import directly. In the Import Media window, you just have to set the Files of Type dropdown to All Files.

I have also played with these files in Blade 2.1, but I haven't tried exporting them from it yet. Blade seems to have a somewhat more traditional NLE interface than Vegas for what that's worth.

Also, I have the JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS deck so I've transferred these files via firewire from my PC using the shareware DVHSTool and viewed them on my Pioneer Elite HD rearscreen. Though not quite as sharp as 1080i broadcasts they look pretty damn good and you're right, the jellyfish is wonderful!
I'm at home on both Macs and PCs (my laptop is a Titanium G4) but I have to admit Windows XP is further along in it's support of consumer HiDef. It comes with a driver to support the JVC via Firewire. And while the Mac is missing a FireWire I/O app, there are several for Win XP as well a nice little shareware app, Murdoc Cutter for cutting segments (commercials?) out of transport streams (it's Japanese though, and there's no English instructions so it takes alittle time to figure out). There are a number of HD tuner PCI cards that record the MPEG2 transport streams to hard disk and transferring these files to and from DVHS is not difficult. Anyone interested in this subject should visit the following link:
http://www.webtc.com/DVHS/default.htm
JVC is smart to use transport streams over DVB-ASI as a means of transfer from the HD camcorder to it's DVHS deck as it seems to be fast becoming a defacto standard. And with even the new Blu-Ray HD DVD standard using MPEG2 transport streams, I'm thinking/hoping there will be little difficulty in transferring from the JVC HD camcorder to Blu-Ray HD DVDs.
Now if they'd just hurry up and start selling the cameras here!

Steve Mullen · May 16th, 2003, 08:26 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob England : Also, I have the JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS deck so I've transferred these files via firewire from my PC using the shareware DVHSTool and viewed them on my Pioneer Elite HD rearscreen. Though not quite as sharp as 1080i broadcasts they look pretty damn good and you're right, the jellyfish is wonderful!
-->>>

Wow! You've gone further than anyone!

Looks like we need a Mac version of "DVHSTool" but with the addition of a function to output/input regular MPEG-2 files. (Of course we need an HD MPEG-2 codec for QT!!!)

1) Do you have any idea of what audio formats can go with an Apple MPEG-2 file. AC3? MPEG1 Layer2? WAV? AIF?

2) Please lert me know how it goes with Blade-2. I much prefer it. I pointed Jamie Carr the way to the TS shareware so I'm hoping he'll get the functions added soon.

Paul Mogg · May 17th, 2003, 08:03 AM

Is there a windows MPEG2_TS encoder? or a program that will output that format? If so could someone post what and where it is please?

Paul

Joe Carney · May 17th, 2003, 05:53 PM

A little FYI for our Mac friends...
Vegas can pull QT source directly on to the timeline so....
If you want to get you content moved to Windows Media 9 HD, hook up with your friendly local Vegas user and don't feel left out.
Be nice to see what something encoded with a 10bit BlackMagic codec would look like in WinHD.

Alex Knappenberger · May 17th, 2003, 06:00 PM

About you guys talking about this camera for film production, even if it was capable of 24p, why would you want to use it anyway? Maybe it's resolution is good, but it's still a 1CCD camera.

Steve Mullen · May 18th, 2003, 02:05 AM

<<<--
Yes, they import directly. In the Import Media window, you just have to set the Files of Type dropdown to All Files.
-->>>

When these MPEG2 based camcorders were first announced, there was the strong feeling that editing could not be Frame Accurate.

Normal MPEG2 has a 15 frame GOP which would mean that only 2 frames per second would be visible as we STEPPED through a file. (When we learned the JVC has a 6 frame GOP we were happy that we would be able to to see 5 frames in every second.)

But here we are bringing this MPEG2 into our current NLE's and we are able to STEP through every frame in either direction!

But it's more than STEPPING at issue. It's the actual cutting of an MPEG2 stream!

When we MARK on anything other than an I-frame -- what happens when we render? Clearly the frame we have Marked has only part of the information needed. I find it hard to believe that, during rendering, the decoder is smart enough to obtain the previous I frame and compute all the intermediate frames up to our Marked frame -- and from there until the next I-frame.

1) Were we wrong 2 months ago? Are MPEG2 decoders able to construct every frame? (That would mean it keeps a GOP worth of IBP frames available so it can construct any frame.)

2) Are we wrong now? Is it possible that the KDDI MPEG2 capture application does a conversion from IBP frame to I-frame during capture? If that is the case, then we are inputting I-frame-only MPEG2. This would be a nice bonus if true.

Are there any tools that could be used to check the GOP structure of a file?

Dennis Adams · May 18th, 2003, 08:06 PM

Steve:

A well constructed NLE MPEG decoder can reconstruct any random frame, be it an I, P, or B frame. The decoder will have to seek to the I frame at the start of the GOP and construct frames forward to the desired frame. The MPEG reader in Vegas is able to do this. However, it's not as efficient as I-frame only formats, such as DV, and up until recently, MPEG was never intended as an edit source format.

The trick is during rendering, to be able to re-use existing GOPs for segments without FX, transitions, compositing, etc. Only a limited number of tools can do that (Vegas currently cannot, and re-renders MPEG sources), but I suspect many more tools will do this in the future, if MPEG streams intended for editing catch on (such as the JVC HD1 and the Sony MicroMV cameras).

///d@

Steve Mullen · May 19th, 2003, 09:41 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Adams : Steve:

A well constructed NLE MPEG decoder can reconstruct any random frame, be it an I, P, or B frame. The decoder will have to seek to the I frame at the start of the GOP and construct frames forward to the desired frame. The MPEG reader in Vegas is able to do this. However, it's not as efficient as I-frame only formats, such as DV, and up until recently, MPEG was never intended as an edit source format.
-->>>

So our computers have become fast enough that we simply don't see the reconstruction. Nice.

<--- The trick is during rendering, to be able to re-use existing GOPs for segments without FX, transitions, compositing, etc. Only a limit number of tools can do that (Vegas currently cannot, and re-renders MPEG sources) -->>>

So during the Export, the decoder generates (using previous I frames as needed) all frames which are then re-encoded. For those of use who used Premiere V2 with a VideoVision, the Export render wait is familiar.

The problem then is HOW to see full-speed playback of MPEG-2 in our NLE. Can Vegas do this?

What's strange is that MPEG-2 on DVDs play at full-speed, but MPEG-2 in a Timeline doesn't. I wonder if Apple's MPEG-2 decoder doesn't use AlitiVec?

Dennis Adams · May 19th, 2003, 02:08 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : The problem then is HOW to see full-speed playback of MPEG-2 in our NLE. Can Vegas do this? -->>>

On a fast enough machine, yes. I would venture to guess that next year, CPUs will be fast enough to do this in realtime in a software NLE. I was seeing about 20 fps from Windows Media 720/30p source media in Vegas, on the 3GHz Pentium 4 workstations we had at NAB. I would have liked to try the HD1 footage on the identical machine, but didn't have the chance.

Regarding PC-based DVD playback, they are often faster than an NLE because they use hardware assistance for the video overlay display, YUV->RGB conversion, and sometimes DCT decoding. The player software (and the PCs memory bus) often never needs to touch decompressed images.

///d@

Steve Mullen · May 19th, 2003, 03:01 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Adams

Looks like I need to install Vegas and quickly learn to use it. :)

It would seem possible for an NLE to, before Export, scan down a timeline and "render" every cut-point where the incoming clip did not natrually begin on an I-frame.

This assumes, of course, that it is legal to generate a short GOP. I've always wondered if this was acceptable.

Thus, cuts would be treated like any transition that must be rendered. Then unmodified MPEG-2 would be able to be simply copied to the Export file.

In fact, the little "cuts render" could be done automatically so one could view the Timeline in realtime (assuming a fast enough CPU).

May 16th, 2003, 08:26 PM	#18
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Bob England : Also, I have the JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS deck so I've transferred these files via firewire from my PC using the shareware DVHSTool and viewed them on my Pioneer Elite HD rearscreen. Though not quite as sharp as 1080i broadcasts they look pretty damn good and you're right, the jellyfish is wonderful! -->>> Wow! You've gone further than anyone! Looks like we need a Mac version of "DVHSTool" but with the addition of a function to output/input regular MPEG-2 files. (Of course we need an HD MPEG-2 codec for QT!!!) 1) Do you have any idea of what audio formats can go with an Apple MPEG-2 file. AC3? MPEG1 Layer2? WAV? AIF? 2) Please lert me know how it goes with Blade-2. I much prefer it. I pointed Jamie Carr the way to the TS shareware so I'm hoping he'll get the functions added soon. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

May 17th, 2003, 08:03 AM	#19
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Is there a windows MPEG2_TS encoder? or a program that will output that format? If so could someone post what and where it is please? Paul __________________ Paul

May 18th, 2003, 02:05 AM	#22
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Yes, they import directly. In the Import Media window, you just have to set the Files of Type dropdown to All Files. -->>> When these MPEG2 based camcorders were first announced, there was the strong feeling that editing could not be Frame Accurate. Normal MPEG2 has a 15 frame GOP which would mean that only 2 frames per second would be visible as we STEPPED through a file. (When we learned the JVC has a 6 frame GOP we were happy that we would be able to to see 5 frames in every second.) But here we are bringing this MPEG2 into our current NLE's and we are able to STEP through every frame in either direction! But it's more than STEPPING at issue. It's the actual cutting of an MPEG2 stream! When we MARK on anything other than an I-frame -- what happens when we render? Clearly the frame we have Marked has only part of the information needed. I find it hard to believe that, during rendering, the decoder is smart enough to obtain the previous I frame and compute all the intermediate frames up to our Marked frame -- and from there until the next I-frame. 1) Were we wrong 2 months ago? Are MPEG2 decoders able to construct every frame? (That would mean it keeps a GOP worth of IBP frames available so it can construct any frame.) 2) Are we wrong now? Is it possible that the KDDI MPEG2 capture application does a conversion from IBP frame to I-frame during capture? If that is the case, then we are inputting I-frame-only MPEG2. This would be a nice bonus if true. Are there any tools that could be used to check the GOP structure of a file? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

May 19th, 2003, 09:41 AM	#24
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Adams : Steve: A well constructed NLE MPEG decoder can reconstruct any random frame, be it an I, P, or B frame. The decoder will have to seek to the I frame at the start of the GOP and construct frames forward to the desired frame. The MPEG reader in Vegas is able to do this. However, it's not as efficient as I-frame only formats, such as DV, and up until recently, MPEG was never intended as an edit source format. -->>> So our computers have become fast enough that we simply don't see the reconstruction. Nice. <--- The trick is during rendering, to be able to re-use existing GOPs for segments without FX, transitions, compositing, etc. Only a limit number of tools can do that (Vegas currently cannot, and re-renders MPEG sources) -->>> So during the Export, the decoder generates (using previous I frames as needed) all frames which are then re-encoded. For those of use who used Premiere V2 with a VideoVision, the Export render wait is familiar. The problem then is HOW to see full-speed playback of MPEG-2 in our NLE. Can Vegas do this? What's strange is that MPEG-2 on DVDs play at full-speed, but MPEG-2 in a Timeline doesn't. I wonder if Apple's MPEG-2 decoder doesn't use AlitiVec? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

May 19th, 2003, 03:01 PM	#26
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Adams Looks like I need to install Vegas and quickly learn to use it. :) It would seem possible for an NLE to, before Export, scan down a timeline and "render" every cut-point where the incoming clip did not natrually begin on an I-frame. This assumes, of course, that it is legal to generate a short GOP. I've always wondered if this was acceptable. Thus, cuts would be treated like any transition that must be rendered. Then unmodified MPEG-2 would be able to be simply copied to the Export file. In fact, the little "cuts render" could be done automatically so one could view the Timeline in realtime (assuming a fast enough CPU). __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

May 16th, 2003, 07:11 AM	#16
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : With the right graphics card, I think you could play your WM9 movie directly to an HD projector. -->>> Steve: Seems reasonable, via the DVI or VGA connections. I'm sure some of the Home Theater PC (HTPC) folks are already trying this. I haven't been on the HTPC forums lately. The new Terminator 2 Extreme DVD (coming out soon?) has an HD WMV disc, currently only playable on PCs, and also on the forthcoming WMV DVD players. ///d@

May 16th, 2003, 09:38 AM	#17
Bob England Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 59	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Bob England : Just to see if it'd work I loaded all 3 clips into Vegas 4. -->>> I haven't installed Vegas 4 yet on my PC so I have a couple of questions. Did it import the TS files directly? -->>> Yes, they import directly. In the Import Media window, you just have to set the Files of Type dropdown to All Files. I have also played with these files in Blade 2.1, but I haven't tried exporting them from it yet. Blade seems to have a somewhat more traditional NLE interface than Vegas for what that's worth. Also, I have the JVC HM-DH30000U DVHS deck so I've transferred these files via firewire from my PC using the shareware DVHSTool and viewed them on my Pioneer Elite HD rearscreen. Though not quite as sharp as 1080i broadcasts they look pretty damn good and you're right, the jellyfish is wonderful! I'm at home on both Macs and PCs (my laptop is a Titanium G4) but I have to admit Windows XP is further along in it's support of consumer HiDef. It comes with a driver to support the JVC via Firewire. And while the Mac is missing a FireWire I/O app, there are several for Win XP as well a nice little shareware app, Murdoc Cutter for cutting segments (commercials?) out of transport streams (it's Japanese though, and there's no English instructions so it takes alittle time to figure out). There are a number of HD tuner PCI cards that record the MPEG2 transport streams to hard disk and transferring these files to and from DVHS is not difficult. Anyone interested in this subject should visit the following link: http://www.webtc.com/DVHS/default.htm JVC is smart to use transport streams over DVB-ASI as a means of transfer from the HD camcorder to it's DVHS deck as it seems to be fast becoming a defacto standard. And with even the new Blu-Ray HD DVD standard using MPEG2 transport streams, I'm thinking/hoping there will be little difficulty in transferring from the JVC HD camcorder to Blu-Ray HD DVDs. Now if they'd just hurry up and start selling the cameras here!

May 17th, 2003, 05:53 PM	#20
Joe Carney Inner Circle Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Centreville Va Posts: 1,828	A little FYI for our Mac friends... Vegas can pull QT source directly on to the timeline so.... If you want to get you content moved to Windows Media 9 HD, hook up with your friendly local Vegas user and don't feel left out. Be nice to see what something encoded with a 10bit BlackMagic codec would look like in WinHD.

May 17th, 2003, 06:00 PM	#21
Alex Knappenberger High School Student Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canton, Ohio, USA Posts: 609	About you guys talking about this camera for film production, even if it was capable of 24p, why would you want to use it anyway? Maybe it's resolution is good, but it's still a 1CCD camera.

May 18th, 2003, 08:06 PM	#23
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	Steve: A well constructed NLE MPEG decoder can reconstruct any random frame, be it an I, P, or B frame. The decoder will have to seek to the I frame at the start of the GOP and construct frames forward to the desired frame. The MPEG reader in Vegas is able to do this. However, it's not as efficient as I-frame only formats, such as DV, and up until recently, MPEG was never intended as an edit source format. The trick is during rendering, to be able to re-use existing GOPs for segments without FX, transitions, compositing, etc. Only a limited number of tools can do that (Vegas currently cannot, and re-renders MPEG sources), but I suspect many more tools will do this in the future, if MPEG streams intended for editing catch on (such as the JVC HD1 and the Sony MicroMV cameras). ///d@

May 19th, 2003, 02:08 PM	#25
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : The problem then is HOW to see full-speed playback of MPEG-2 in our NLE. Can Vegas do this? -->>> On a fast enough machine, yes. I would venture to guess that next year, CPUs will be fast enough to do this in realtime in a software NLE. I was seeing about 20 fps from Windows Media 720/30p source media in Vegas, on the 3GHz Pentium 4 workstations we had at NAB. I would have liked to try the HD1 footage on the identical machine, but didn't have the chance. Regarding PC-based DVD playback, they are often faster than an NLE because they use hardware assistance for the video overlay display, YUV->RGB conversion, and sometimes DCT decoding. The player software (and the PCs memory bus) often never needs to touch decompressed images. ///d@