Short movies in DV...shoot HD?

[Dave Eaton]

Hi,

According to UPS tracking my HD1U arrives on Tuesday. So, in the interim, I'm just doing research. My main use will be in creating short videos for web viewing (FLV files) with some being put on DVDs as well.

Something I haven't found information on (feel free to direct me to something I missed) is on the "best" way to shoot for DV output (web and DVD). By this I mean should I shoot in HD or SD mode and down-sample to DV or should I shoot in DV mode?

I've read that shooting in HD or SD, editing, and then dropping down to DV output yielded better quality DV than shooting in DV initially, plus I'd have the higher resolution files should I need them. Is this correct?

I assume that I use my NLE app for the down-sampling, or does the camera do that for you -- thought I read that the Sony HVR-A1U did, unsure on the HD1.

I'll be using Final Cut Pro initially but will have access to Windows and Vegas and may learn that as well.

Ideas? Suggestions?

aTdHvAaNnKcSe.

[Ken Hodson]

Don't go to DV at all. DV is not a great post codec. If you want to make a DVD just make it from you HDV footage witout an un-necessary conversion to DV in the middle. Or go to SD in a lossless or visually lossless codec. Huffyuv is free. In less you must have a DV version (can't think of why?) skip it all together.

[Dave Eaton]

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

Don't go to DV at all. DV is not a great post codec. If you want to make a DVD just make it from you HDV footage witout an un-necessary conversion to DV in the middle. Or go to SD in a lossless or visually lossless codec. Huffyuv is free. In less you must have a DV version (can't think of why?) skip it all together.

Hi Ken, thanks for replying. I was thinking of the HD vs. DV file size of video for the web mostly. The stuff I will be doing initially with be small (320x240 or so) and short (1-3 minutes) and I'd like to keep the file sizes slow internet spped friendly for a while.

I will have to learn more and do some experiments in making DVD's and web files from HDV footage. My setup is still Mac based but I will look into Huffyuv soon as I'm thinking of making a switch to Windows in the not too distant future. Probably should lurk in the HD forum, too.

[Ken Hodson]

HD is a format where DV is a codec. You should use SD and HD if you are trying to describe resolution. DviX, Xvid and Quicktime are popular web codecs that produce very small size files and will do any resolution you want.
If you looking for small file size HuffYUV will not suit. It is a lossless codec with the same quality as uncompressed but a smaller file size. But still huge in comparison to the origional HDV. Its advantage is if you want an intermediate codec that will not degrade the image quality. For example converting you HD HDV into HuffYUV SD then to DVD or any other highly compressed codec for web use. Or if your doing FX work or colour correction that would break the origional codec.

[Charles Papert]

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

HD is a format where DV is a codec. You should use SD and HD if you are trying to describe resolution.

Very simple point Ken, but easy to forget or misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.

[Cole McDonald]

I think the suggestion is not to go from HD to DV (SD) until the final FLV output, then let the Flash encoder do the reduction for you. The more compression steps you put in the workflow, the worse your footage will end up looking...so keep it HD however your editing package imports it until the final output. The DVD burning software will have a list of file types it can import...feed it HD if you can, but tell it to burn an SD DVD. Same thing with the flash encoders for the web. Feed the final step HD and let it do the conversion to SD.

[Dave Eaton]

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

HD is a format where DV is a codec. You should use SD and HD if you are trying to describe resolution.

Thanks for that Ken. Now here's where I got confused. Note the recording mode switch on the GR-HD1: "Memory, HD, SD, DV". Had it said "Memory, HD, SD" or "Memory, HD, DV" I'd have been fine but having SD and DV initially confused me. Reading the manual refers to them as "modes" which is how I was referring to them, the modes of the GR-HD1.

The manual says that SD allows you to record in MPEG2 format 480p @ 16:9 and DV records in 480i @ 4:3. So, all I could think of was that if I wanted 480i 4:3 DV I'd shoot in DV mode, for 16:9 480p shoot in SD mode, for 16:9 720p shoot in HD mode.

Adding to the confusion, and the reason for this thread, was that prior to buying the JVC (which I definitely like) I'd surfed and read a lot. One person, a Sony user if I remember correctly, said that they'd run some tests shooting in HD mode and in DV mode with their camera and converted the HD footage to DV somehow and compared it to the DV mode shot footage. They found that shooting in HD mode yielded better quality DV than the straight shot DV mode stuff. I was using their terminology in my post.

Do I need to shoot in DV? Yes, some, for now. Why? I have three cameras, two are DV and the JVC. I'm thinking that if I do two camera shoots I'll want them both in 4:3 format. Granted, I haven't tried 16:9 in my DV cameras yet nor mixing HD and DV mode footage yet. Still have a lot to learn. Appreciate the help.

[Dave Eaton]

Originally Posted by Cole McDonald

I think the suggestion is not to go from HD to DV (SD) until the final FLV output, then let the Flash encoder do the reduction for you. The more compression steps you put in the workflow, the worse your footage will end up looking...so keep it HD however your editing package imports it until the final output. The DVD burning software will have a list of file types it can import...feed it HD if you can, but tell it to burn an SD DVD. Same thing with the flash encoders for the web. Feed the final step HD and let it do the conversion to SD.

Hey, thanks. I wrote the original post prior to having the camera and knowing even less than I do now -- hard to believe. I've since shot and edited in HD and output in various modes and I now see how I can do what I want.

I, also, see that I need to start thinking of getting more horsepower as my HDV footage is slow to import -- 1/2 speed was reported yesterday, turn off the camera and warm my coffee while the computer tries to catch up.

[Ken Hodson]

Originally Posted by Cole McDonald

I think the suggestion is not to go from HD to DV (SD) until the final FLV output, then let the Flash encoder do the reduction for you.

Cole, your getting my workflow point but you too seem to be confussing DV with SD. DV is a codec and one that doesn't mesh with HDV's 4:2:0(even PAL) and is also highly compressed. As I stated unless you need to be in DV codec, there is no need to convert to DV.
That stated Dave, if your other cams are shooting 4:3 DV and you are going to edit all of the material 4:3 DV then yes I probably would recomend shooting in the DV mode for simplicity. You other option would be shoot in HD, then crop in post then render out to SD. But if you were going to "drop" this into a DV time line I don't know if there would be much point.

[Dave Eaton]

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

if your other cams are shooting 4:3 DV and you are going to edit all of the material 4:3 DV then yes I probably would recomend shooting in the DV mode for simplicity. You other option would be shoot in HD, then crop in post then render out to SD. But if you were going to "drop" this into a DV time line I don't know if there would be much point.

Someone told me I could crop HD to 4:3, may look at that. For now, two camera shoots will be in DV. Shame Final Cut Pro 5 doesn't support SD. Oh well, I may have to have a look at Vegas.

Thanks.

[Ken Hodson]

I believe Cineform is about to release a Mac version of its software. I have used it from day one of HDV and it is amazing. You may have to use one of the new intel macs. If you are PC then I recomend it asap.