To 24P or Not? at DVinfo.net

Heath McKnight · April 19th, 2003, 01:00 AM

My ultimate question is will I want to shoot my next movie on this to save cash on camera rentals/buys or just stick with a higher brand of DV or scrounge for pennies and go VariCam rental?

Does shooting on 24P really matter? I mean, if I'm finishing to HD for fests (and not film), why bother with 24P. Then again, if there is a chance I go to film, I should record 24P for ease of transfer...or is that a myth?

Thanks,

Heath
www.mpsdigital.com

Steve Bell · April 19th, 2003, 02:01 PM

Hi,

It depends on a movie. This thing (JVC) should be better than DVX in progressive, but even if it is a little better, it is a joke; it should be a lot better!

From the type of budget you're talking about the options are DVX in 4:3, the JVC HD10, or rental of Varicam.

24 fps -- forget it. 30 fps gives you better picture. 24 fps is an archaic speed that the film pros always wanted to raise but because of economic reasons did so only ocassionally -- to 30 fps.

Because of an ever increasing number of theaters with digital projection, 30p is fine. Landmark theaters are just getting converted to digital. These art houses are in many major markets.

Glenn Gipson · April 19th, 2003, 03:04 PM

If you shoot on 30p you will have problems with a 35mm blowup, but it can be done.

Jeff Donald · April 19th, 2003, 03:22 PM

The companies that do the transfer to film will have their own prerequisites for best quality transfers to film. Consult with them first to avoid any surprises or confusion when you get to that stage in post. Some will prefer PAL, others NTSC, or 24p or 30p or 29.97 etc. They are all different and many have developed their own proprietary software for the transfer. Others provide the service using someone else's software and presets. If you just blindly pick the cheapest transfer company you will probably get less than optimum results. Try before you buy.

Steve Mullen · April 19th, 2003, 10:57 PM

Please see my article on the is topic at:

http://videosystems.com/ar/video_thr...film/index.htm

Jeff Donald · April 19th, 2003, 11:20 PM

Nice article Steve, thanks for the link.

Glenn Gipson · April 20th, 2003, 05:38 AM

No transfer house prefers 60I, 50I, or 30p over a native 24p image for blowup to 35mm. Some transfer houses my CLAIM that they can make the non-24p motion similar to 24p material, but everyone should know that 24p footage is the sure shot way to go for a 35mm blow up. And 30p is the worse type of footage to blow up to 35mm because you don't have the 60 and 50 interlace fields to "wiggle" with when creating 24p material. Once again, there are NO transfer houses that prefer 30p over 24p when blowing up to 35mm. But, like I said, it can be done, as is often the case when someone wants your money.

Jeff Donald · April 20th, 2003, 06:10 AM

Here is an interesting article from MovieMaker Magazine. It details the transfer process and highlights several companies, including members Marcus van Bavel's company, FilmTeam. One of the companies highlighted, Swiss Effects,did the transfer for two recent Sundance entries, Chuck and Buck, and Everything Put Together.

Swiss Effects site is full of helpful tips and guides to a successful transfer. But they make no bones about it, they prefer PAL. They have a guide to various settings to use with different cameras and a downloadable pdf with additional tips.

Glenn Gipson · April 20th, 2003, 07:33 AM

>>Swiss Effects site is full of helpful tips and guides to a successful transfer. But they make no bones about it, they prefer PAL. They have a guide to various settings to use with different cameras and a downloadable pdf with additional tips.<<

Yes, but do they prefer PAL over NTSC, or do they prefer PAL over 24p? I would think that they are referring to PAL over NTSC, and not PAL over 24p.

Jeff Donald · April 20th, 2003, 07:44 AM

A direct quote from their site

Quote:

Using the 50Hz PAL format provides a noticeably better quality.

If you are considering a transfer with them I would certainly email them for a clarification. Also from there site.

Quote:

Making a pre-production consultation with Swiss Effects technicians and/or test transfers using the desired setup helps find a good camera exposure and avoids unpleasant surprises.

Steve Mullen · April 20th, 2003, 02:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : >>Swiss Effects site is full of helpful tips and guides to a successful transfer. But they make no bones about it, they prefer PAL. They have a guide to various settings to use with different cameras and a downloadable pdf with additional tips.<<

Yes, but do they prefer PAL over NTSC, or do they prefer PAL over 24p? I would think that they are referring to PAL over NTSC, and not PAL over 24p. -->>>

If you shoot DVX100 in ADV 24P, you get full vertical resolution (480-lines) thus get more effective resolution than shooting PAL which is interlaced (576 * .75) = 432). So you are right they should prefer NTSC 24P.

But, this house is in Europe and has invested many years in developing a technique to use interlaced PAL -- so I would not be surprised if they hang with PAL as long as they can. Plus, they may prefer 25P from the European DVX100. (My DVX100 Guide has full info -- plug.)

In the USA, the reverse is true. Out labs have every incentive to master 24P. I've seen transfers at DuArt in NYC that looked very good -- as it should.

If one shot with the JVC -- one should shoot SD at 60P. Afer editing, pull-down is applied to create 24p -- really 23.98fps. This is the same process used with 720p60 HD video.

As mentioned above, do not use 30p. However, if you are not going to film and want a film look, then 30p is great. It lowers the temporal rate to nearly that of film -- and is very easy to work with. Plus it should go to DVDs very nicely after down rezing.

Glenn Gipson · April 26th, 2003, 12:48 PM

>>If you shoot DVX100 in ADV 24P, you get full vertical resolution (480-lines) thus get more effective resolution than shooting PAL which is interlaced (576 * .75) = 432). So you are right they should prefer NTSC 24P.<<

Ahhh, I had heard that the progressive mode in the DVX100 actually has more lines of resolution then a similar interlaced camera, and now I know why. Thanks. However, what is the *.75 from anyway?

Peter Moore · April 26th, 2003, 01:00 PM

If you are shooting a movie that is to be projected in a theater, or transferred to 16 or 35mm, you should go with 24p. You have your full 480 lines progressive and it'll look great. The JVC HD cam is 720p, a 50% improvement. The color quality you lose, however, is not made up for by the resolution imporvement IMO. I've seen 480p DV blown up to a big screen. It doesn't look all that bad unless you're really close, and even then it just looks pixelated.

April 19th, 2003, 03:22 PM	#4
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	The companies that do the transfer to film will have their own prerequisites for best quality transfers to film. Consult with them first to avoid any surprises or confusion when you get to that stage in post. Some will prefer PAL, others NTSC, or 24p or 30p or 29.97 etc. They are all different and many have developed their own proprietary software for the transfer. Others provide the service using someone else's software and presets. If you just blindly pick the cheapest transfer company you will probably get less than optimum results. Try before you buy. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 19th, 2003, 10:57 PM	#5
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Please see my article on the is topic at: http://videosystems.com/ar/video_thr...film/index.htm __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 19th, 2003, 11:20 PM	#6
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Nice article Steve, thanks for the link. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 20th, 2003, 06:10 AM	#8
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Here is an interesting article from MovieMaker Magazine. It details the transfer process and highlights several companies, including members Marcus van Bavel's company, FilmTeam. One of the companies highlighted, Swiss Effects,did the transfer for two recent Sundance entries, Chuck and Buck, and Everything Put Together. Swiss Effects site is full of helpful tips and guides to a successful transfer. But they make no bones about it, they prefer PAL. They have a guide to various settings to use with different cameras and a downloadable pdf with additional tips. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 20th, 2003, 02:22 PM	#11
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : >>Swiss Effects site is full of helpful tips and guides to a successful transfer. But they make no bones about it, they prefer PAL. They have a guide to various settings to use with different cameras and a downloadable pdf with additional tips.<< Yes, but do they prefer PAL over NTSC, or do they prefer PAL over 24p? I would think that they are referring to PAL over NTSC, and not PAL over 24p. -->>> If you shoot DVX100 in ADV 24P, you get full vertical resolution (480-lines) thus get more effective resolution than shooting PAL which is interlaced (576 * .75) = 432). So you are right they should prefer NTSC 24P. But, this house is in Europe and has invested many years in developing a technique to use interlaced PAL -- so I would not be surprised if they hang with PAL as long as they can. Plus, they may prefer 25P from the European DVX100. (My DVX100 Guide has full info -- plug.) In the USA, the reverse is true. Out labs have every incentive to master 24P. I've seen transfers at DuArt in NYC that looked very good -- as it should. If one shot with the JVC -- one should shoot SD at 60P. Afer editing, pull-down is applied to create 24p -- really 23.98fps. This is the same process used with 720p60 HD video. As mentioned above, do not use 30p. However, if you are not going to film and want a film look, then 30p is great. It lowers the temporal rate to nearly that of film -- and is very easy to work with. Plus it should go to DVDs very nicely after down rezing. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 19th, 2003, 01:00 AM	#1
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	My ultimate question is will I want to shoot my next movie on this to save cash on camera rentals/buys or just stick with a higher brand of DV or scrounge for pennies and go VariCam rental? Does shooting on 24P really matter? I mean, if I'm finishing to HD for fests (and not film), why bother with 24P. Then again, if there is a chance I go to film, I should record 24P for ease of transfer...or is that a myth? Thanks, Heath www.mpsdigital.com

April 19th, 2003, 02:01 PM	#2
Steve Bell New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 22	Hi, It depends on a movie. This thing (JVC) should be better than DVX in progressive, but even if it is a little better, it is a joke; it should be a lot better! From the type of budget you're talking about the options are DVX in 4:3, the JVC HD10, or rental of Varicam. 24 fps -- forget it. 30 fps gives you better picture. 24 fps is an archaic speed that the film pros always wanted to raise but because of economic reasons did so only ocassionally -- to 30 fps. Because of an ever increasing number of theaters with digital projection, 30p is fine. Landmark theaters are just getting converted to digital. These art houses are in many major markets.

April 19th, 2003, 03:04 PM	#3
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	If you shoot on 30p you will have problems with a 35mm blowup, but it can be done.

April 20th, 2003, 05:38 AM	#7
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	No transfer house prefers 60I, 50I, or 30p over a native 24p image for blowup to 35mm. Some transfer houses my CLAIM that they can make the non-24p motion similar to 24p material, but everyone should know that 24p footage is the sure shot way to go for a 35mm blow up. And 30p is the worse type of footage to blow up to 35mm because you don't have the 60 and 50 interlace fields to "wiggle" with when creating 24p material. Once again, there are NO transfer houses that prefer 30p over 24p when blowing up to 35mm. But, like I said, it can be done, as is often the case when someone wants your money.

April 20th, 2003, 07:33 AM	#9
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	>>Swiss Effects site is full of helpful tips and guides to a successful transfer. But they make no bones about it, they prefer PAL. They have a guide to various settings to use with different cameras and a downloadable pdf with additional tips.<< Yes, but do they prefer PAL over NTSC, or do they prefer PAL over 24p? I would think that they are referring to PAL over NTSC, and not PAL over 24p.

April 26th, 2003, 12:48 PM	#12
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	>>If you shoot DVX100 in ADV 24P, you get full vertical resolution (480-lines) thus get more effective resolution than shooting PAL which is interlaced (576 * .75) = 432). So you are right they should prefer NTSC 24P.<< Ahhh, I had heard that the progressive mode in the DVX100 actually has more lines of resolution then a similar interlaced camera, and now I know why. Thanks. However, what is the *.75 from anyway?

April 26th, 2003, 01:00 PM	#13
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	If you are shooting a movie that is to be projected in a theater, or transferred to 16 or 35mm, you should go with 24p. You have your full 480 lines progressive and it'll look great. The JVC HD cam is 720p, a 50% improvement. The color quality you lose, however, is not made up for by the resolution imporvement IMO. I've seen 480p DV blown up to a big screen. It doesn't look all that bad unless you're really close, and even then it just looks pixelated.