Report from NAB at DVinfo.net

Steve Mullen · April 10th, 2003, 06:52 PM

1) All models at NAB were prototypes. So all image quality reports are still "subject to change without notice." Plus, not everyone who shoots knows HOW to shoot.

2) One display was playing material shot at PMA a month ago. Its image had MPEG noise on surfaces with flat color. And on details.

Another camcorder at the camera display looked great. You could compare its image to other far more expensive camcorders. Color saturation was perfect. No image noise. With AGC on at 1/30th S, it got good color images even when they dimmed the stage lights to show how other cameras performed in very low light.

At 1/60th, it was of course, less sensitive by 1 stop. I'm not sure which shutter-speed will be correct for 30p video.

This told me the single CCD chip works fine. The real issue seems to be MPEG-2 encoding. And, this noise can't be seen in stills so all these discussions based on stills are not super valuable.

3) The software from CineForm enables editing with Premiere under Windows. Very clever design. During capture -- using Premiere -- the 19Mbps MPEG is transcoded to 75Mbps Wavelet. This is equivilent to 100Mbps I-frame MPEG-2.

Now you can edit as usual. They supply a set of filters and transitions that preview in real-time. Including a very nice color corrector.

Export to: 720p60, 480p60, DV, or MPEG-2 for DVD. Or, Print-to-Tape. You will have to render the timeline.

4) The KDD NLE was there, but I didn't look at it. Just no time. But was fully working since it is shipping in Japan.

5) Neither FCP 4 nor QT 6 support MPEG-2 editing. It will be a while till they do as FCP 4 isn't even released yet. However, Apple is very aware of the JVC.

Don Berube · April 10th, 2003, 11:38 PM

Hi Steve,

I didn't get the chance to look at the demo at NAB, but I did play with the camcorder during a recent camera show in Boston. The footage being played was all static, meaning none of the shots had any movement such as pans or handheld, etc.

What type of footage was shown during NAB? Were any of the shots moving?

- don

Ken Freed JVC · April 11th, 2003, 12:53 AM

This is a good example of what happens.

The camera at the Camera Company was not the JY-HD10 ProHD unit. The HD10 isn't done yet. Specifically the part that isn't done is the IMAGE. The mathmatics aren't complete.

At no time has anyone ever indicated that it is complete. Nor have we ever indicated that the image you see in a prototype is the image you would get when the camera ships, maybe July.

I of course can't speak for the consumer version, that is a different market and a different product. That was the consumer version and it was not being shown on a proper monitor.

The cameras at NAB also weren't finished products but we were very pleased with the images that our cameraman shot Tuesday night around town.

It is still a work in progress.

Steve Bell · April 11th, 2003, 01:36 AM

JVC said that both HD1 and HD10 will be released in May and that the only difference are different mic jacks and a handle -- and price -- $500 more. HD1 sells in Japan and no one has praised the image. 35 Lux rating? 100K pixel viewfinder on a 900K pixel CCD camera? How are you going to focus this thing? I'll pass. Being 1st means nothing for company reputation. Being better means everything. Sony's cheapest SD camcorder (PDX10) has a 500-line viewfinder, 7 Lux rating.

Don Berube · April 11th, 2003, 05:18 AM

Thank you Ken for your post. Was hoping to stop by and visit at NAB, but just was too swamped during the show!

It will be interesting to see the camera again when it is finished. Iv'e had my eye on some of your monitors, looks like you have some great deals on the 14 and 20 inch models. I think I am going to go ahead and spring for an HD capable monitor. Iv'e heard that JVC has a nice model with SDI.

- don

Allan Rejoso · April 12th, 2003, 12:12 AM

According to some Jap websites, the differences between the HD10 and HD1 are as follows:

XLR adapter
180K Viewfinder (HD1 only has a 113K VF)
Audio Level Indicator
Color Bar Generator

Allan

Steve Bell · April 12th, 2003, 02:23 AM

Allan, Could you please be so very kind and find out when will the HD10 camera be available in Japan.

"This is what Ken Freed from JVC posted: Specifically the part that isn't done is the IMAGE. The mathmatics aren't complete." Does it mean that the Japanese HD10 will also have an improved image or does it mean that when the mathematics are done then even the consumer HD1 will have an improved image from that time on? Allan, Ken -- can you please get some clarification on that?

Allan Rejoso · April 12th, 2003, 08:17 AM

The HD10 will be available in Japan within this month. Unfortunately, I don't think I would see a demo unit because the marketing route of pro-cams is totally different. There is more than a month difference in release dates between the HD1 and HD10 so I guess Victor used that period not only to include the added features listed above but also to debug the mathematics as well.

"...does it mean that when the mathematics are done then even the consumer HD1 will have an improved image from that time on?"

Good point! The HD1 and HD10, having the same optic system and CCD, should essentially have the same imaging algorithm isn't it?

BTW, I don't want to sound like a broken record but has anybody actually played with the cams in NAB (panning in particular) and not simply looked at demo footages?

Demo unit of Sony's blue ray disc recorder are now available in many stores in Tokyo but official release date is on 15 April 2003. Quite an interesting device but EXPENSIVE!

Regards
Allan

Steve Bell · April 12th, 2003, 10:04 AM

Thanks Allan,

Is there any talk in Tokyo of Sony or Hitachi coming out this year with a HD DVD camcorder? Has there been any test report on HD1 in any Japanese magazine, and what they had to say? How many dB gain up does the camera have? What do you think of the image compared to HDTV broadcast?

Any answers would be very appreciated.

SB

Maya Taylor · April 12th, 2003, 02:20 PM

I played with the cam at NAB and overall I was very disapointed. I sure hope it's not the final version cause the picture quality wether in DV or HD, looked pretty average. I did some panning and zooming on the live lit woman model that they had and it was ok. The shot they showed on an HD TV looked very weak and had some visible compression artifacts. Overall, the cam is pretty average and not revolutionary at all. For the same price range, you would be much better with a DVX-100.
Just my 2cs

Maya

Steve Mullen · April 12th, 2003, 03:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Maya Taylor : For the same price range, you would be much better with a DVX-100.
Just my 2cs Maya -->>>

Maya, I think you are missing something. The weakness -- at this point is low-bit rate MPEG-2 encoding. Nothing suggests there is any problem recording with DV encoding.

So your comment is a bit like saying you looked at a Land Rover, but decided a sports car like the Boxster was "better" because -- at the same price -- you could race it. If you want to race (shoot NTSC) buy a race car. If you want to go on a Safari, you by the 4WD (JVC).

So what do YOU want to do?

Do you own an HDTV? Are you planning on buying one soon? Do you have use for HD or SD? Can you make money shooting HD?

If all your answers are YES -- how could a DVX100 be "better" for you?

The only thing better than the JVC starts at $55K and goes to $100K. Can you afford one of these? Does it come bundled with an HD NLE? Can you afford an HD VTR?

The whole point of this camera is to exit from the NTSC/PAL world to the SD/HD world.

The real question for JVC is can the "post-processing" of the CCD be optimized to get the most of the 18Mbps video encoding? If not, the JVCs will not be succesful. If it can, then there will be a good market.

We went through this same process with DV.

Some examples of tuning:

1) Making sure edge enhancement is at an acceptable (to the eye) minimum.

2) Shaping the high frequency response of the CCD output to provide the maximum visible fine detail while minimizing very high frequencies.

3) Reducing chroma noise, especially on red and blue areas. The original VX700 had no chroma noise reduction. It did not work well with red flowers! But, it made great images otherwise.

The other issues are non-issues. All 24p and 30p video can strobe or blur. If you like film-look, this will be fine.

By the way, what DV and HD footage did you see? Was it the PMA footage shot on a consumer protype a month ago?

Allan Rejoso · April 12th, 2003, 07:46 PM

"I did some panning and zooming on the live lit woman model that they had and it was ok. "

Maya,
Are you referring to HD mode as well? I knew panning under DV mode is Ok. SD mode is still a little bit jittery but acceptable.

Thanks
Allan

Maya Taylor · April 12th, 2003, 07:58 PM

Hello Steve,

MPEG2 is indeed a weakness like you said. You're supposetly recording in HD but yet you are compressing the footage so much that it looses all the beauty of HD...so what's the point? As far as normal DV goes, again in my opinion, the footage quality was not better than a DVX-100 or a PD150. (I am talking about normal DV 60i here)

I am not dogging the JVC cam here, I am just pointing out that he HD quality on this cam is simply not that great....it doesn't even look close to HD. (it looked more like DV to me!)
I saw a footage that was suposetely shot outside the day before NAB. I also tested the cam on live models (if you were at NAB, you know what I am talking about) and to be honest I didn't not find this cam to be impressive at all! (Trust me, I really wanted this camera to be good!)

While a DVX-100 does not have what I call at this point "fake HD", it does overall have a better picture quality in 60i (or 30P) and is an overall better camera in my opinion.

I guess I am not sure I understand the point of having this JVC cam for HD when the HD quality looks so bad so far. And if you were to use it just for 60i then you're better off with another camera that offers more in this mode.
Maybe you can help me understand the point of this camera....

Thanks

Maya

Steve Mullen · April 12th, 2003, 09:12 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Maya Taylor : Hello Maybe you can help me understand the point of this camera.... -->>>

1) It offers much better than NTSC resolution. And this is measured not claimed.

3) Why does one want this resolution? So we can see good quality on big (6' to 10') screens from front projectors. Only at this size does one get true HD. Blowing NTSC to this side simply doesn't work.

3) MPEG-2? How do you you watch HD at home. How does Blu-ray HD DVD works? All are MPEG-2 as is Sony's IMX.

4) The issue isn't simply one CCD nor is it MPEG-2. The issue is HOW the signal is processed before encoding. Unless that is done right, the encoder will generate noise as artifacts. Until we see the final HD10 -- there is no way to judge. Right now it doesn't look good. But it's a long time to June/July.

David Mintzer · April 12th, 2003, 09:25 PM

I'm sorry but I am a bit suspicious of Steve Mullens' posts---He is selling a guide to JVC's new camera on his website---25.95---Most of the people at NAB who saw this camera were terribly disappointed----I trust them before I trust someone who has a vested interest in selling this camera. I will await its release and come to my own judgement.

April 10th, 2003, 06:52 PM	#1
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Report from NAB 1) All models at NAB were prototypes. So all image quality reports are still "subject to change without notice." Plus, not everyone who shoots knows HOW to shoot. 2) One display was playing material shot at PMA a month ago. Its image had MPEG noise on surfaces with flat color. And on details. Another camcorder at the camera display looked great. You could compare its image to other far more expensive camcorders. Color saturation was perfect. No image noise. With AGC on at 1/30th S, it got good color images even when they dimmed the stage lights to show how other cameras performed in very low light. At 1/60th, it was of course, less sensitive by 1 stop. I'm not sure which shutter-speed will be correct for 30p video. This told me the single CCD chip works fine. The real issue seems to be MPEG-2 encoding. And, this noise can't be seen in stills so all these discussions based on stills are not super valuable. 3) The software from CineForm enables editing with Premiere under Windows. Very clever design. During capture -- using Premiere -- the 19Mbps MPEG is transcoded to 75Mbps Wavelet. This is equivilent to 100Mbps I-frame MPEG-2. Now you can edit as usual. They supply a set of filters and transitions that preview in real-time. Including a very nice color corrector. Export to: 720p60, 480p60, DV, or MPEG-2 for DVD. Or, Print-to-Tape. You will have to render the timeline. 4) The KDD NLE was there, but I didn't look at it. Just no time. But was fully working since it is shipping in Japan. 5) Neither FCP 4 nor QT 6 support MPEG-2 editing. It will be a while till they do as FCP 4 isn't even released yet. However, Apple is very aware of the JVC. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 10th, 2003, 11:38 PM	#2
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Hi Steve, I didn't get the chance to look at the demo at NAB, but I did play with the camcorder during a recent camera show in Boston. The footage being played was all static, meaning none of the shots had any movement such as pans or handheld, etc. What type of footage was shown during NAB? Were any of the shots moving? - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

April 11th, 2003, 12:53 AM	#3
Ken Freed JVC JVC Regional Sales Engineer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wayne, NJ Posts: 49	This is a good example This is a good example of what happens. The camera at the Camera Company was not the JY-HD10 ProHD unit. The HD10 isn't done yet. Specifically the part that isn't done is the IMAGE. The mathmatics aren't complete. At no time has anyone ever indicated that it is complete. Nor have we ever indicated that the image you see in a prototype is the image you would get when the camera ships, maybe July. I of course can't speak for the consumer version, that is a different market and a different product. That was the consumer version and it was not being shown on a proper monitor. The cameras at NAB also weren't finished products but we were very pleased with the images that our cameraman shot Tuesday night around town. It is still a work in progress. __________________ Ken Freed JVC Mid-Atlantic District Sales Manager (201) 637-7706 kfreed@jvc.com

April 11th, 2003, 05:18 AM	#5
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Thank you Ken for your post. Was hoping to stop by and visit at NAB, but just was too swamped during the show! It will be interesting to see the camera again when it is finished. Iv'e had my eye on some of your monitors, looks like you have some great deals on the 14 and 20 inch models. I think I am going to go ahead and spring for an HD capable monitor. Iv'e heard that JVC has a nice model with SDI. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

April 12th, 2003, 03:50 PM	#11
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Maya Taylor : For the same price range, you would be much better with a DVX-100. Just my 2cs Maya -->>> Maya, I think you are missing something. The weakness -- at this point is low-bit rate MPEG-2 encoding. Nothing suggests there is any problem recording with DV encoding. So your comment is a bit like saying you looked at a Land Rover, but decided a sports car like the Boxster was "better" because -- at the same price -- you could race it. If you want to race (shoot NTSC) buy a race car. If you want to go on a Safari, you by the 4WD (JVC). So what do YOU want to do? Do you own an HDTV? Are you planning on buying one soon? Do you have use for HD or SD? Can you make money shooting HD? If all your answers are YES -- how could a DVX100 be "better" for you? The only thing better than the JVC starts at $55K and goes to $100K. Can you afford one of these? Does it come bundled with an HD NLE? Can you afford an HD VTR? The whole point of this camera is to exit from the NTSC/PAL world to the SD/HD world. The real question for JVC is can the "post-processing" of the CCD be optimized to get the most of the 18Mbps video encoding? If not, the JVCs will not be succesful. If it can, then there will be a good market. We went through this same process with DV. Some examples of tuning: 1) Making sure edge enhancement is at an acceptable (to the eye) minimum. 2) Shaping the high frequency response of the CCD output to provide the maximum visible fine detail while minimizing very high frequencies. 3) Reducing chroma noise, especially on red and blue areas. The original VX700 had no chroma noise reduction. It did not work well with red flowers! But, it made great images otherwise. The other issues are non-issues. All 24p and 30p video can strobe or blur. If you like film-look, this will be fine. By the way, what DV and HD footage did you see? Was it the PMA footage shot on a consumer protype a month ago? __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 11th, 2003, 01:36 AM	#4
Steve Bell New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 22	JVC said that both HD1 and HD10 will be released in May and that the only difference are different mic jacks and a handle -- and price -- $500 more. HD1 sells in Japan and no one has praised the image. 35 Lux rating? 100K pixel viewfinder on a 900K pixel CCD camera? How are you going to focus this thing? I'll pass. Being 1st means nothing for company reputation. Being better means everything. Sony's cheapest SD camcorder (PDX10) has a 500-line viewfinder, 7 Lux rating.

April 12th, 2003, 12:12 AM	#6
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	According to some Jap websites, the differences between the HD10 and HD1 are as follows: XLR adapter 180K Viewfinder (HD1 only has a 113K VF) Audio Level Indicator Color Bar Generator Allan

April 12th, 2003, 02:23 AM	#7
Steve Bell New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 22	Allan, Could you please be so very kind and find out when will the HD10 camera be available in Japan. "This is what Ken Freed from JVC posted: Specifically the part that isn't done is the IMAGE. The mathmatics aren't complete." Does it mean that the Japanese HD10 will also have an improved image or does it mean that when the mathematics are done then even the consumer HD1 will have an improved image from that time on? Allan, Ken -- can you please get some clarification on that?

April 12th, 2003, 08:17 AM	#8
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	The HD10 will be available in Japan within this month. Unfortunately, I don't think I would see a demo unit because the marketing route of pro-cams is totally different. There is more than a month difference in release dates between the HD1 and HD10 so I guess Victor used that period not only to include the added features listed above but also to debug the mathematics as well. "...does it mean that when the mathematics are done then even the consumer HD1 will have an improved image from that time on?" Good point! The HD1 and HD10, having the same optic system and CCD, should essentially have the same imaging algorithm isn't it? BTW, I don't want to sound like a broken record but has anybody actually played with the cams in NAB (panning in particular) and not simply looked at demo footages? Demo unit of Sony's blue ray disc recorder are now available in many stores in Tokyo but official release date is on 15 April 2003. Quite an interesting device but EXPENSIVE! Regards Allan

April 12th, 2003, 10:04 AM	#9
Steve Bell New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Posts: 22	Thanks Allan, Is there any talk in Tokyo of Sony or Hitachi coming out this year with a HD DVD camcorder? Has there been any test report on HD1 in any Japanese magazine, and what they had to say? How many dB gain up does the camera have? What do you think of the image compared to HDTV broadcast? Any answers would be very appreciated. SB

April 12th, 2003, 02:20 PM	#10
Maya Taylor New Boot Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 21	I played with the cam at NAB and overall I was very disapointed. I sure hope it's not the final version cause the picture quality wether in DV or HD, looked pretty average. I did some panning and zooming on the live lit woman model that they had and it was ok. The shot they showed on an HD TV looked very weak and had some visible compression artifacts. Overall, the cam is pretty average and not revolutionary at all. For the same price range, you would be much better with a DVX-100. Just my 2cs Maya

April 12th, 2003, 07:46 PM	#12
Allan Rejoso Major Player Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Tokyo, Japan Posts: 569	"I did some panning and zooming on the live lit woman model that they had and it was ok. " Maya, Are you referring to HD mode as well? I knew panning under DV mode is Ok. SD mode is still a little bit jittery but acceptable. Thanks Allan

April 12th, 2003, 07:58 PM	#13
Maya Taylor New Boot Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 21	Hello Steve, MPEG2 is indeed a weakness like you said. You're supposetly recording in HD but yet you are compressing the footage so much that it looses all the beauty of HD...so what's the point? As far as normal DV goes, again in my opinion, the footage quality was not better than a DVX-100 or a PD150. (I am talking about normal DV 60i here) I am not dogging the JVC cam here, I am just pointing out that he HD quality on this cam is simply not that great....it doesn't even look close to HD. (it looked more like DV to me!) I saw a footage that was suposetely shot outside the day before NAB. I also tested the cam on live models (if you were at NAB, you know what I am talking about) and to be honest I didn't not find this cam to be impressive at all! (Trust me, I really wanted this camera to be good!) While a DVX-100 does not have what I call at this point "fake HD", it does overall have a better picture quality in 60i (or 30P) and is an overall better camera in my opinion. I guess I am not sure I understand the point of having this JVC cam for HD when the HD quality looks so bad so far. And if you were to use it just for 60i then you're better off with another camera that offers more in this mode. Maybe you can help me understand the point of this camera.... Thanks Maya

April 12th, 2003, 09:12 PM	#14
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Maya Taylor : Hello Maybe you can help me understand the point of this camera.... -->>> 1) It offers much better than NTSC resolution. And this is measured not claimed. 3) Why does one want this resolution? So we can see good quality on big (6' to 10') screens from front projectors. Only at this size does one get true HD. Blowing NTSC to this side simply doesn't work. 3) MPEG-2? How do you you watch HD at home. How does Blu-ray HD DVD works? All are MPEG-2 as is Sony's IMX. 4) The issue isn't simply one CCD nor is it MPEG-2. The issue is HOW the signal is processed before encoding. Unless that is done right, the encoder will generate noise as artifacts. Until we see the final HD10 -- there is no way to judge. Right now it doesn't look good. But it's a long time to June/July. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 12th, 2003, 09:25 PM	#15
David Mintzer Rextilleon Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Pleasantville, NY Posts: 520	I'm sorry but I am a bit suspicious of Steve Mullens' posts---He is selling a guide to JVC's new camera on his website---25.95---Most of the people at NAB who saw this camera were terribly disappointed----I trust them before I trust someone who has a vested interest in selling this camera. I will await its release and come to my own judgement.