Report from NAB

Jeff Donald · April 23rd, 2003, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Yes, I agree. For some reason 30p looks more filmic on monitors then 24p does. 24p only shines when it?s transferred to 35mm. If I were shooting a project that was absolutely not going to see the big screen, I would stick with 30p.

I agree, 100%.

Steve Mullen · April 23rd, 2003, 02:57 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : Paul,

I think the problem lies with the transfer house. I saw a DVX100 transfer to film done by DuArt and it looked close to 16mm. All the other 60I and 50I cameras didn?t look as good to me. -->>>

I also saw the DVX100 transfer at DuArt. It looked like grainless 16mm blown to 35mm.

I also saw a test reel and when done by DuArt everything looked good. The Varicam looked best to my eyes.

But I've seen a dozen DV (mostly VX1000) moved to 35mm and they looked OK -- considering the cost.

Saltmen of Tibet looked great! PAL VX1000 transferred by Swiss Effects.

75% of the results are due to the film lab. The rest is the DP. The camera plays a very small part.

Which means -- if the Q of the HD10 is good, 480p60 my look great tranferred by a good lab. It will have a full 480-lines of V rez. Over 525-lines H rez.

Glenn Gipson · April 23rd, 2003, 03:01 PM

I hope your right Mr. Mullen.

Heath McKnight · April 23rd, 2003, 03:13 PM

But that's the HD10U in SD mode, not HD, right, Steve?

What about using steadicam with everything from an XL-1 to a DVX100 to the higher end SD and HD cameras? What does that reproduce on film transfers? I'm clueless in this area.

heath
904am.net

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen

I also saw the DVX100 transfer at DuArt. It looked like grainless 16mm blown to 35mm.

I also saw a test reel and when done by DuArt everything looked good. The Varicam looked best to my eyes.

But I've seen a dozen DV (mostly VX1000) moved to 35mm and they looked OK -- considering the cost.

Saltmen of Tibet looked great! PAL VX1000 transferred by Swiss Effects.

75% of the results are due to the film lab. The rest is the DP. The camera plays a very small part.

Which means -- if the Q of the HD10 is good, 480p60 my look great tranferred by a good lab. It will have a full 480-lines of V rez. Over 525-lines H rez. -->>>

Steve Mullen · April 23rd, 2003, 10:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : But that's the HD10U in SD mode, not HD, right, Steve? -->>>

I had a good discussion with JVC at NAB and we talked about how folks were missing SD mode.

Using it one gets:
Native 16:9
Full V rez.
No motion artifacts
High temporal rate
AND
the vast, vast majority of plasmas, LCD/DLP projectors do NOT have HD rez. -- in fact most (in 16:9) offer no more than 480 V rows and about 800/1280 H columns. They run at 480p60 natively and are a perfect match to the HD10 in SD mode.

With all due respect -- the video industry seems to have become obsessed with making FILMs. Panasonic and Apple are really pushing this.

My bet is that most money making projects are either making NTSC TV where any camcorder will work -- or creating a CINEMA EXPERIENCE in non-broadcast applications.

These private event presentations will be shown on plasmas or big projector screens. This is where the HD10 may shine.

Heath McKnight · April 24th, 2003, 12:04 AM

Well, in that case, I'll shoot 9:04 AM on either the CineAlta, Varicam or the non-HD but digital Ikegami HL-DV7W PAL (and master in HD and transfer to film, too). I'm a digital filmmaker who knows the reality is most theatres have film still.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : But that's the HD10U in SD mode, not HD, right, Steve? -->>>

I had a good discussion with JVC at NAB and we talked about how folks were missing SD mode.

Using it one gets:
Native 16:9
Full V rez.
No motion artifacts
High temporal rate
AND
the vast, vast majority of plasmas, LCD/DLP projectors do NOT have HD rez. -- in fact most (in 16:9) offer no more than 480 V rows and about 800/1280 H columns. They run at 480p60 natively and are a perfect match to the HD10 in SD mode.

With all due respect -- the video industry seems to have become obsessed with making FILMs. Panasonic and Apple are really pushing this.

My bet is that most money making projects are either making NTSC TV where any camcorder will work -- or creating a CINEMA EXPERIENCE in non-broadcast applications.

These private event presentations will be shown on plasmas or big projector screens. This is where the HD10 may shine. -->>>

Steve Mullen · April 24th, 2003, 01:38 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Well, in that case, I'll shoot 9:04 AM on either the CineAlta, Varicam or the non-HD but digital Ikegami HL-DV7W PAL (and master in HD and transfer to film, too). -->>>

That's the way I would go.

But don't for get the 50Mbps formats: IMX 25p PAL and Pana's wonderful new SDX-900 which has 24p Frankly, I'd go with either the 900 or the Varicam.

If JVC gets the "Euro" model out with 25p -- that would open an important window for filmmakers.

Glenn Gipson · April 24th, 2003, 07:09 AM

>>If JVC gets the "Euro" model out with 25p -- that would open an important window for filmmakers.<<

Maybe Ken could pass the word on this, I would buy a 25p model.

Heath McKnight · April 24th, 2003, 10:22 AM

I'll go with the Ikegami camera PAL if our budget can't afford us the 900 or Varicam. If our budget ends up only $75,000 with a quarter or so of that going to our Hollywood star, I'll go with a mini-HD camera (hopefully they'll have 24P or PAL in two years).

heath
904am.net

Glenn Gipson · April 24th, 2003, 10:39 AM

If the Ikegami isn’t progressive, I wouldn’t mess with it. I would go with the SDX 900 or Sony MPEG IMX PAL camera, you don't want to mess with an interlace camera when transferring to 35mm. While it can surely be done, and it does happen all the time, a progressive 25p or 24p camera will look much much better in terms of motion. To better understand where I am coming from, rent THE KING IS ALIVE, ANNIVERSARY PARTY or TADPOLE, and pay attention to the motion when the actors quickly move. This is a result of interlace material being converted to 24p.

Heath McKnight · April 24th, 2003, 11:11 AM

What did they shoot THE ANNIVERSARY PARTY on? I heard that's the best DV to film, low budget, yet. (Non-HD, of course.)

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : If the Ikegami isn’t progressive, I wouldn’t mess with it. I would go with the SDX 900 or Sony MPEG IMX PAL camera, you don't want to mess with an interlace camera when transferring to 35mm. While it can surely be done, and it does happen all the time, a progressive 25p or 24p camera will look much much better in terms of motion. To better understand where I am coming from, rent THE KING IS ALIVE, ANNIVERSARY PARTY or TADPOLE, and pay attention to the motion when the actors quickly move. This is a result of interlace material being converted to 24p. -->>>

Glenn Gipson · April 24th, 2003, 11:12 AM

They shot it on a PAL DSR 500.

Heath McKnight · April 24th, 2003, 11:22 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : They shot it on a PAL DSR 500. -->>>

Did the motion look all right? My film has a lot of steadicam and stuff I plan on doing.

heath

Glenn Gipson · April 24th, 2003, 11:27 AM

If you rent it you will see what I am talking about. While the motion in the anniversary party wasn't as annoying as The King is Alive, it was still there. If you have a lot of stedi-cam shots, I would definately stick with a progressive camera. But rent the anniversary party to see what I am talking about. What's wrong with renting the SDX900 or Sony MPEG IMX camera?

Heath McKnight · April 24th, 2003, 01:30 PM

My friend is deciding between buying the PAL Ikegami HL-DV7W and the SDX900 and decided the SDX900 isn't ideal for going to hi-def or 35 mm film. He based this on renting both cameras and said in he (and his company's) professional opinion, the Ikegami was closest to the VariCam when the Ike is transferred to HD and 35 mm.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : If you rent it you will see what I am talking about. While the motion in the anniversary party wasn't as annoying as The King is Alive, it was still there. If you have a lot of stedi-cam shots, I would definately stick with a progressive camera. But rent the anniversary party to see what I am talking about. What's wrong with renting the SDX900 or Sony MPEG IMX camera? -->>>

April 23rd, 2003, 02:57 PM	#92
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : Paul, I think the problem lies with the transfer house. I saw a DVX100 transfer to film done by DuArt and it looked close to 16mm. All the other 60I and 50I cameras didn?t look as good to me. -->>> I also saw the DVX100 transfer at DuArt. It looked like grainless 16mm blown to 35mm. I also saw a test reel and when done by DuArt everything looked good. The Varicam looked best to my eyes. But I've seen a dozen DV (mostly VX1000) moved to 35mm and they looked OK -- considering the cost. Saltmen of Tibet looked great! PAL VX1000 transferred by Swiss Effects. 75% of the results are due to the film lab. The rest is the DP. The camera plays a very small part. Which means -- if the Q of the HD10 is good, 480p60 my look great tranferred by a good lab. It will have a full 480-lines of V rez. Over 525-lines H rez. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 23rd, 2003, 10:22 PM	#95
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : But that's the HD10U in SD mode, not HD, right, Steve? -->>> I had a good discussion with JVC at NAB and we talked about how folks were missing SD mode. Using it one gets: Native 16:9 Full V rez. No motion artifacts High temporal rate AND the vast, vast majority of plasmas, LCD/DLP projectors do NOT have HD rez. -- in fact most (in 16:9) offer no more than 480 V rows and about 800/1280 H columns. They run at 480p60 natively and are a perfect match to the HD10 in SD mode. With all due respect -- the video industry seems to have become obsessed with making FILMs. Panasonic and Apple are really pushing this. My bet is that most money making projects are either making NTSC TV where any camcorder will work -- or creating a CINEMA EXPERIENCE in non-broadcast applications. These private event presentations will be shown on plasmas or big projector screens. This is where the HD10 may shine. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 24th, 2003, 01:38 AM	#97
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Well, in that case, I'll shoot 9:04 AM on either the CineAlta, Varicam or the non-HD but digital Ikegami HL-DV7W PAL (and master in HD and transfer to film, too). -->>> That's the way I would go. But don't for get the 50Mbps formats: IMX 25p PAL and Pana's wonderful new SDX-900 which has 24p Frankly, I'd go with either the 900 or the Varicam. If JVC gets the "Euro" model out with 25p -- that would open an important window for filmmakers. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 23rd, 2003, 03:01 PM	#93
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	I hope your right Mr. Mullen.

April 23rd, 2003, 03:13 PM	#94
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	But that's the HD10U in SD mode, not HD, right, Steve? What about using steadicam with everything from an XL-1 to a DVX100 to the higher end SD and HD cameras? What does that reproduce on film transfers? I'm clueless in this area. heath 904am.net <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen I also saw the DVX100 transfer at DuArt. It looked like grainless 16mm blown to 35mm. I also saw a test reel and when done by DuArt everything looked good. The Varicam looked best to my eyes. But I've seen a dozen DV (mostly VX1000) moved to 35mm and they looked OK -- considering the cost. Saltmen of Tibet looked great! PAL VX1000 transferred by Swiss Effects. 75% of the results are due to the film lab. The rest is the DP. The camera plays a very small part. Which means -- if the Q of the HD10 is good, 480p60 my look great tranferred by a good lab. It will have a full 480-lines of V rez. Over 525-lines H rez. -->>>

April 24th, 2003, 12:04 AM	#96
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Well, in that case, I'll shoot 9:04 AM on either the CineAlta, Varicam or the non-HD but digital Ikegami HL-DV7W PAL (and master in HD and transfer to film, too). I'm a digital filmmaker who knows the reality is most theatres have film still. heath <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : But that's the HD10U in SD mode, not HD, right, Steve? -->>> I had a good discussion with JVC at NAB and we talked about how folks were missing SD mode. Using it one gets: Native 16:9 Full V rez. No motion artifacts High temporal rate AND the vast, vast majority of plasmas, LCD/DLP projectors do NOT have HD rez. -- in fact most (in 16:9) offer no more than 480 V rows and about 800/1280 H columns. They run at 480p60 natively and are a perfect match to the HD10 in SD mode. With all due respect -- the video industry seems to have become obsessed with making FILMs. Panasonic and Apple are really pushing this. My bet is that most money making projects are either making NTSC TV where any camcorder will work -- or creating a CINEMA EXPERIENCE in non-broadcast applications. These private event presentations will be shown on plasmas or big projector screens. This is where the HD10 may shine. -->>>

April 24th, 2003, 07:09 AM	#98
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	>>If JVC gets the "Euro" model out with 25p -- that would open an important window for filmmakers.<< Maybe Ken could pass the word on this, I would buy a 25p model.

April 24th, 2003, 10:22 AM	#99
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I'll go with the Ikegami camera PAL if our budget can't afford us the 900 or Varicam. If our budget ends up only $75,000 with a quarter or so of that going to our Hollywood star, I'll go with a mini-HD camera (hopefully they'll have 24P or PAL in two years). heath 904am.net

April 24th, 2003, 10:39 AM	#100
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	If the Ikegami isn’t progressive, I wouldn’t mess with it. I would go with the SDX 900 or Sony MPEG IMX PAL camera, you don't want to mess with an interlace camera when transferring to 35mm. While it can surely be done, and it does happen all the time, a progressive 25p or 24p camera will look much much better in terms of motion. To better understand where I am coming from, rent THE KING IS ALIVE, ANNIVERSARY PARTY or TADPOLE, and pay attention to the motion when the actors quickly move. This is a result of interlace material being converted to 24p.

April 24th, 2003, 11:11 AM	#101
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	What did they shoot THE ANNIVERSARY PARTY on? I heard that's the best DV to film, low budget, yet. (Non-HD, of course.) heath <<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : If the Ikegami isn’t progressive, I wouldn’t mess with it. I would go with the SDX 900 or Sony MPEG IMX PAL camera, you don't want to mess with an interlace camera when transferring to 35mm. While it can surely be done, and it does happen all the time, a progressive 25p or 24p camera will look much much better in terms of motion. To better understand where I am coming from, rent THE KING IS ALIVE, ANNIVERSARY PARTY or TADPOLE, and pay attention to the motion when the actors quickly move. This is a result of interlace material being converted to 24p. -->>>

April 24th, 2003, 11:12 AM	#102
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	They shot it on a PAL DSR 500.

April 24th, 2003, 11:22 AM	#103
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : They shot it on a PAL DSR 500. -->>> Did the motion look all right? My film has a lot of steadicam and stuff I plan on doing. heath

April 24th, 2003, 11:27 AM	#104
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	If you rent it you will see what I am talking about. While the motion in the anniversary party wasn't as annoying as The King is Alive, it was still there. If you have a lot of stedi-cam shots, I would definately stick with a progressive camera. But rent the anniversary party to see what I am talking about. What's wrong with renting the SDX900 or Sony MPEG IMX camera?

April 24th, 2003, 01:30 PM	#105
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	My friend is deciding between buying the PAL Ikegami HL-DV7W and the SDX900 and decided the SDX900 isn't ideal for going to hi-def or 35 mm film. He based this on renting both cameras and said in he (and his company's) professional opinion, the Ikegami was closest to the VariCam when the Ike is transferred to HD and 35 mm. heath <<<-- Originally posted by Glenn Gipson : If you rent it you will see what I am talking about. While the motion in the anniversary party wasn't as annoying as The King is Alive, it was still there. If you have a lot of stedi-cam shots, I would definately stick with a progressive camera. But rent the anniversary party to see what I am talking about. What's wrong with renting the SDX900 or Sony MPEG IMX camera? -->>>