JVC HD at CeBIT 03 at DVinfo.net

Henrik Bengtsson · March 17th, 2003, 02:27 AM

Hi all,

just returned from Hannover where they showed the new HD cameras from JVC. Expected release according to one of the JVC guys is July for both the prosumer and consumer versions with a cost of 5000 Euro for the prosumer and 4000 Euro for the consumer. Obviously these numbers are not fixed at this point in time but rather estimates. First impressions were pretty nice. Looks like a pretty solid camera, easy to handle, well balanced.

Hopefully they will add a VTR in the future that handles the Mpeg-2 on DV tape functionality of the camera. You do not want to have to use the camera's player when editing if you can avoid it.

All in all it looked very promising and im seriously contemplating aquiring one for my 2.nd camera since it can record in HD, SD and DV.

Regards,
Henrik

Betsy Moore · March 17th, 2003, 03:12 AM

Dear Henrik,

Did they say it would be in PAL format? Would it be 25P?

Thanks for the report:)

Henrik Bengtsson · March 17th, 2003, 07:53 AM

The European version will be PAL, and i assume that the SD mode will be 25p. The HD mode i am not so sure about. The rep from JVC mumbled something about HD does not differ between PAL or NTSC fps-wise and thus would be 30p regardless of system. If this is true or not i don't know.

Now i just need to finance one :)

/Henrik

Henrik Bengtsson · March 17th, 2003, 08:26 AM

Actually. some more info from the pamphlet they gave me:

Newly developed 1/3.rd mega-Pixel progressive CCD

1.18 MPixels CCD
Top grip with XLR Adapter and / or Microphone. This is removable.
Colourbarsgenerator.
All automatic can be turned off.
Manual focusring
Manual zoomring
Manual aperture & Whitebalance.
Shutterspeeds 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/500 and 1/1000
Analogue component out
FW in/out

Video:
(These were for the NTSC version as the PAL wasn't done yet)
Resolutions: 720/30p (HD), 480p, 480i (SP)
1280x720, 720x480
Chromaformat: 4:2:0
BitRate: 18.3 MBps (since it is using Mpeg-2 to store the HD format in a CBR (Constant Bitrate) )
GOP Structure: M=3, N=6/12 (IBBP)

Audio:
Mpeg1 Audio Layer II
48 Khz, 16 Bit, Datarate of 384 kbps. Stereo.

Well. thats about it, and translated from german as well as i can manage (considering im Swedish and not German nor English :)

/Henrik

Steve Mullen · March 17th, 2003, 04:22 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Henrik Bengtsson : The European version will be PAL, and i assume that the SD mode will be 25p. The HD mode i am not so sure about.>>>

The HD mode is 720p30, the same as the NTSC model.

Gavin Paget Dullard · March 18th, 2003, 04:12 AM

In Australia the HiDefinition currently being test Broadcasted is 25fps [ from July 1st Full comercial HD Broadcasts will commence ] . Thus I dont know where this JVC rep get the idear that hd is only 30 fps . Unfortunately I have a sad impression that JVC will not want to offer 25fps HD in PAL countries as it is too close to film's 24fps . And we can't have consumer HD offering similar fps that the professionals pay for . Interesting is it not ?

Justin Walter · March 18th, 2003, 04:32 AM

Very interesting, Scott Billups says this is the reason "the lens is pretty mediocre or else everyone else would get on their case about killing off the pro market."

Sould we really buy from companies that knowingly degrade the quality of their prosumer product so that it can't compete against their REALLY expensive stuff? I guess all of the other companies do this to some extent.

Speaking of Scott he FINALLY updated his opinion to reflect JVC's announcement that the camera would be released ahead of schedule:

"Is this going to have any effect on what we do here in the US? Probably not because we won't be seeing this in any great quantity till 2004. Canon will introduce the XL2 by the end of 2003 and even though the JVC will throw up more pixels, the new XL series will blow it away with its native 16 X 9, third generation chips (3 instead of JVC's single chip), multiple frame rates (including 24P and more importantly 30P ), much lower compression and most importantly ... the ability to use a manual lens."

Chris Hurd · March 18th, 2003, 07:46 AM

Sounds to me like Scott's been reading our XL2 wish list.

And Justin, yes we should keep buying from these companies. Faulting the JVC because it has a consumer lens is kind of like complaining that a Ford Focus isn't as good as a Lincoln Navigator. If you want bigger and better, then you pay for it. You've gotta look at it in terms of the market. The JVC HD1 is a smaller consumer piece (sure, kind of expensive but far less costly than pro gear). If they made it as good as their big iron, they'd be competing against themselves and kill their own business. Just like the auto manufacturers make different size cars for different price points and different applications, so too do the camera makers.

Canon has their broadcast video lens division, a much larger source of income for them than the XL1; that's why they're careful that the XL1 doesn't compete with their own lenses. All manufacturers do this... they pretty much have to.

Justin Walter · March 18th, 2003, 07:50 PM

I'm not talking about putting a Panavision lens on it. Just something on par with the Canon XL1 manual lens, or at least take off the focus ring that never stops spinning. Does anyone like those things? and while we're at it, make the Pal version do 25p in HD.

I realize this will bring the price up a couple thousand. Seems to me that there are two markets for cameras, the less than $4,000 crowd and the over $9,000. The stuff I've looked at my price point 5,000 - 7,000 doesn't seem much better than the XL1 I'm using. Granted there are comparatively few in my position, so how about making a limited edition camera so that there are not enough to compete with the companies professional cameras, I can dream can't I?

By the way, is Scott right? Is Canon really going to release the XL2 by the end of 2003, or is that just sophistry? This seems a bit soon to me.

Robert Knecht Schmidt · March 18th, 2003, 08:10 PM

It's not sophistry, it's just wishful thinking.

Steve Mullen · March 19th, 2003, 02:19 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Justin Walter : I'm not talking about putting a Panavision lens on it. Just something on par with the Canon XL1 manual lens, or at least take off the focus ring that never stops spinning. Does anyone like those things? and while we're at it, make the Pal version do 25p in HD. >>>

I'm not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, this camcorder -- and any coming from Sony and Panasonic -- is aimed primarily CONSUMERS. People who own 16:9 TVs that can input 480p50, 480p60, 720p60, or 1080i.

Other markets include NON-BROADCAST widescreen SD or HD production to be shown on plasmas or projectors. (Not me, but others.)

IF you can make use of the camera for your purposes JVC will be happy. But, if you can't -- buy an HDCAM. Or, wait for Canon. (Which has not promised HD this year.)

And since no one has tested the lens, nor by the way the XL1 lens, how are you making the compairison?

I'm not sure why so many spend their time documenting their ideas of how a product should be different -- or cheaper. You buy what you need from what's available. And, if you have no needs now -- just wait. For example, I didn't like EIS so I wouldn't buy a Panasonic nor JVC. Now both have optical stablization.

The JVC is the first of long progression of HD camcorders. Some will be cheaper some will be more expensive. Rather than worrying about the camcorder, it might make more sense to buy an HDTV. After all, how do you plan to evaluate a product whose results you can see only at a store -- or worse as many did the DVX100, by exchanging screen-shots.

If you get HD via DBS, you might also want to buy a D-VHS deck. Now you'll have a way to save HD prograns and save your HD productions. <end rant>

Steve Mullen · March 19th, 2003, 02:32 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Gavin Paget Dullard : In Australia the HiDefinition currently being test Broadcasted is 25fps. >>>

Somehow I doubt this. Watching sports at 25p would be nearly impossible! Movies could be sent at 25p, however, but 24p would make more sense.

You need to distinguish between SD at 480p50 from HD. The former is DTV but not HDTV.

So do you really have HD downunder?

If you do, it's likely either 720p60 or 1080i60.

Steve Mullen · March 19th, 2003, 02:34 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Henrik Bengtsson : The European version will be PAL, and i assume that the SD mode will be 25p. >>>

The SD mode is 480p50.

Justin Walter · March 19th, 2003, 03:07 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : I'm not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, this camcorder -- and any coming from Sony and Panasonic -- is aimed primarily CONSUMERS. People who own 16:9 TVs that can input 480p50, 480p60, 720p60, or 1080i.
...
IF you can make use of the camera for your purposes JVC will be happy. -->>>

That's my whole point, JVC won't be happy, because I'd be using this instead of their professional gear. That's why they go out of their way to really degrade their product and that's why you, JVC, and others have to keep repeating that "this camera is just only for making home videos!" What company does that? I don't care if you're buying a XL1s or a pixelvision the salesman tells you, "You plus this camera equals great movies" So when I hear people tell me that this camera is not for that I'm dubious.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen :
I'm not sure why so many spend their time documenting their ideas of how a product should be different -->>>

Sorry about that, I realize that part of my argument was academic, I only made it to counter the comparative analysis made by Chris when he likened the JVC cameras to the Ford Focus and the Lincoln Navigator

Frank Granovski · March 19th, 2003, 03:15 AM

Re: "this camcorder -- and any coming from Sony and Panasonic -- is aimed primarily CONSUMERS."

$3500 to $4000 for a 1 chip consumer cam? Hmmm, JVC is dreaming. For that kind of money you can buy a PD150 (with 3, 1/3" CCDs) and some gear to keep 'er company. Hitachi had a 1 chip DVD cam not too long ago with a 1/2" CCD---no where's near that price.

March 17th, 2003, 02:27 AM	#1
Henrik Bengtsson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 167	JVC HD at CeBIT 03 Hi all, just returned from Hannover where they showed the new HD cameras from JVC. Expected release according to one of the JVC guys is July for both the prosumer and consumer versions with a cost of 5000 Euro for the prosumer and 4000 Euro for the consumer. Obviously these numbers are not fixed at this point in time but rather estimates. First impressions were pretty nice. Looks like a pretty solid camera, easy to handle, well balanced. Hopefully they will add a VTR in the future that handles the Mpeg-2 on DV tape functionality of the camera. You do not want to have to use the camera's player when editing if you can avoid it. All in all it looked very promising and im seriously contemplating aquiring one for my 2.nd camera since it can record in HD, SD and DV. Regards, Henrik __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henrik "HuBBa" Bengtsson, Imaginara Fotographia,http://www.imaginara.se

March 17th, 2003, 07:53 AM	#3
Henrik Bengtsson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 167	The European version will be PAL, and i assume that the SD mode will be 25p. The HD mode i am not so sure about. The rep from JVC mumbled something about HD does not differ between PAL or NTSC fps-wise and thus would be 30p regardless of system. If this is true or not i don't know. Now i just need to finance one :) /Henrik __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henrik "HuBBa" Bengtsson, Imaginara Fotographia,http://www.imaginara.se

March 17th, 2003, 08:26 AM	#4
Henrik Bengtsson Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 167	Actually. some more info from the pamphlet they gave me: Newly developed 1/3.rd mega-Pixel progressive CCD 1.18 MPixels CCD Top grip with XLR Adapter and / or Microphone. This is removable. Colourbarsgenerator. All automatic can be turned off. Manual focusring Manual zoomring Manual aperture & Whitebalance. Shutterspeeds 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125, 1/500 and 1/1000 Analogue component out FW in/out Video: (These were for the NTSC version as the PAL wasn't done yet) Resolutions: 720/30p (HD), 480p, 480i (SP) 1280x720, 720x480 Chromaformat: 4:2:0 BitRate: 18.3 MBps (since it is using Mpeg-2 to store the HD format in a CBR (Constant Bitrate) ) GOP Structure: M=3, N=6/12 (IBBP) Audio: Mpeg1 Audio Layer II 48 Khz, 16 Bit, Datarate of 384 kbps. Stereo. Well. thats about it, and translated from german as well as i can manage (considering im Swedish and not German nor English :) /Henrik __________________ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Henrik "HuBBa" Bengtsson, Imaginara Fotographia,http://www.imaginara.se

March 17th, 2003, 04:22 PM	#5
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Henrik Bengtsson : The European version will be PAL, and i assume that the SD mode will be 25p. The HD mode i am not so sure about.>>> The HD mode is 720p30, the same as the NTSC model. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

March 18th, 2003, 04:32 AM	#7
Justin Walter Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Justin Walter - Salt Lake City Posts: 51	Very interesting, Scott Billups says this is the reason "the lens is pretty mediocre or else everyone else would get on their case about killing off the pro market." Sould we really buy from companies that knowingly degrade the quality of their prosumer product so that it can't compete against their REALLY expensive stuff? I guess all of the other companies do this to some extent. Speaking of Scott he FINALLY updated his opinion to reflect JVC's announcement that the camera would be released ahead of schedule: "Is this going to have any effect on what we do here in the US? Probably not because we won't be seeing this in any great quantity till 2004. Canon will introduce the XL2 by the end of 2003 and even though the JVC will throw up more pixels, the new XL series will blow it away with its native 16 X 9, third generation chips (3 instead of JVC's single chip), multiple frame rates (including 24P and more importantly 30P ), much lower compression and most importantly ... the ability to use a manual lens." __________________ Justin Walter

March 17th, 2003, 03:12 AM	#2
Betsy Moore Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 444	Dear Henrik, Did they say it would be in PAL format? Would it be 25P? Thanks for the report:)

March 18th, 2003, 04:12 AM	#6
Gavin Paget Dullard New Boot Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Melbourne , Australia Posts: 11	In Australia the HiDefinition currently being test Broadcasted is 25fps [ from July 1st Full comercial HD Broadcasts will commence ] . Thus I dont know where this JVC rep get the idear that hd is only 30 fps . Unfortunately I have a sad impression that JVC will not want to offer 25fps HD in PAL countries as it is too close to film's 24fps . And we can't have consumer HD offering similar fps that the professionals pay for . Interesting is it not ?

March 18th, 2003, 07:46 AM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Sounds to me like Scott's been reading our XL2 wish list. And Justin, yes we should keep buying from these companies. Faulting the JVC because it has a consumer lens is kind of like complaining that a Ford Focus isn't as good as a Lincoln Navigator. If you want bigger and better, then you pay for it. You've gotta look at it in terms of the market. The JVC HD1 is a smaller consumer piece (sure, kind of expensive but far less costly than pro gear). If they made it as good as their big iron, they'd be competing against themselves and kill their own business. Just like the auto manufacturers make different size cars for different price points and different applications, so too do the camera makers. Canon has their broadcast video lens division, a much larger source of income for them than the XL1; that's why they're careful that the XL1 doesn't compete with their own lenses. All manufacturers do this... they pretty much have to. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

March 18th, 2003, 07:50 PM	#9
Justin Walter Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Justin Walter - Salt Lake City Posts: 51	I'm not talking about putting a Panavision lens on it. Just something on par with the Canon XL1 manual lens, or at least take off the focus ring that never stops spinning. Does anyone like those things? and while we're at it, make the Pal version do 25p in HD. I realize this will bring the price up a couple thousand. Seems to me that there are two markets for cameras, the less than $4,000 crowd and the over $9,000. The stuff I've looked at my price point 5,000 - 7,000 doesn't seem much better than the XL1 I'm using. Granted there are comparatively few in my position, so how about making a limited edition camera so that there are not enough to compete with the companies professional cameras, I can dream can't I? By the way, is Scott right? Is Canon really going to release the XL2 by the end of 2003, or is that just sophistry? This seems a bit soon to me. __________________ Justin Walter

March 18th, 2003, 08:10 PM	#10
Robert Knecht Schmidt Wrangler Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Cleveland, Ohio Posts: 1,933	It's not sophistry, it's just wishful thinking. __________________ All the best, Robert K S Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| The best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

March 19th, 2003, 02:19 AM	#11
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Justin Walter : I'm not talking about putting a Panavision lens on it. Just something on par with the Canon XL1 manual lens, or at least take off the focus ring that never stops spinning. Does anyone like those things? and while we're at it, make the Pal version do 25p in HD. >>> I'm not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, this camcorder -- and any coming from Sony and Panasonic -- is aimed primarily CONSUMERS. People who own 16:9 TVs that can input 480p50, 480p60, 720p60, or 1080i. Other markets include NON-BROADCAST widescreen SD or HD production to be shown on plasmas or projectors. (Not me, but others.) IF you can make use of the camera for your purposes JVC will be happy. But, if you can't -- buy an HDCAM. Or, wait for Canon. (Which has not promised HD this year.) And since no one has tested the lens, nor by the way the XL1 lens, how are you making the compairison? I'm not sure why so many spend their time documenting their ideas of how a product should be different -- or cheaper. You buy what you need from what's available. And, if you have no needs now -- just wait. For example, I didn't like EIS so I wouldn't buy a Panasonic nor JVC. Now both have optical stablization. The JVC is the first of long progression of HD camcorders. Some will be cheaper some will be more expensive. Rather than worrying about the camcorder, it might make more sense to buy an HDTV. After all, how do you plan to evaluate a product whose results you can see only at a store -- or worse as many did the DVX100, by exchanging screen-shots. If you get HD via DBS, you might also want to buy a D-VHS deck. Now you'll have a way to save HD prograns and save your HD productions. <end rant> __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

March 19th, 2003, 02:32 AM	#12
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Gavin Paget Dullard : In Australia the HiDefinition currently being test Broadcasted is 25fps. >>> Somehow I doubt this. Watching sports at 25p would be nearly impossible! Movies could be sent at 25p, however, but 24p would make more sense. You need to distinguish between SD at 480p50 from HD. The former is DTV but not HDTV. So do you really have HD downunder? If you do, it's likely either 720p60 or 1080i60. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

March 19th, 2003, 02:34 AM	#13
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Henrik Bengtsson : The European version will be PAL, and i assume that the SD mode will be 25p. >>> The SD mode is 480p50. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

March 19th, 2003, 03:07 AM	#14
Justin Walter Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Justin Walter - Salt Lake City Posts: 51	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : I'm not sure how many times it needs to be repeated, this camcorder -- and any coming from Sony and Panasonic -- is aimed primarily CONSUMERS. People who own 16:9 TVs that can input 480p50, 480p60, 720p60, or 1080i. ... IF you can make use of the camera for your purposes JVC will be happy. -->>> That's my whole point, JVC won't be happy, because I'd be using this instead of their professional gear. That's why they go out of their way to really degrade their product and that's why you, JVC, and others have to keep repeating that "this camera is just only for making home videos!" What company does that? I don't care if you're buying a XL1s or a pixelvision the salesman tells you, "You plus this camera equals great movies" So when I hear people tell me that this camera is not for that I'm dubious. <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : I'm not sure why so many spend their time documenting their ideas of how a product should be different -->>> Sorry about that, I realize that part of my argument was academic, I only made it to counter the comparative analysis made by Chris when he likened the JVC cameras to the Ford Focus and the Lincoln Navigator __________________ Justin Walter

March 19th, 2003, 03:15 AM	#15
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Re: *"this camcorder -- and any coming from Sony and Panasonic -- is aimed primarily CONSUMERS."* $3500 to $4000 for a 1 chip consumer cam? Hmmm, JVC is dreaming. For that kind of money you can buy a PD150 (with 3, 1/3" CCDs) and some gear to keep 'er company. Hitachi had a 1 chip DVD cam not too long ago with a 1/2" CCD---no where's near that price.