Various posts concerning GR-HD1U and JY-HD10U

Peter Moore · July 9th, 2003, 03:23 PM

David's precisely right. You will probably find the same phenominon on software DVD players versus stand alone televisions.

The point is valid, however - don't rip on the picture until you see it on an intended display device.

Of course, as I asked in a different thread, when you think about it there really is no good way of getting your material to an HDTV as of yet!

Heath McKnight · July 9th, 2003, 09:54 PM

This just started happening. I was dumping to tape (DV mode) from my tibook/new 7200 rpm firewire drive on the HD10 (again, DV mode). The first few times, no problem. But lately, I'm getting video sparkles and audio "scratches or glitches." It's not in the computer and the cable isn't bad (just bought a new one today)...

Any ideas? FCP 3, btw.

heath

Steve Mullen · July 10th, 2003, 01:53 PM

EXAMPLE: A horizontally moving rectangle and a fixed circle are shot at 24fps with a 180 degree shutter.

Then displayed at 24fps with a two bladed shutter. (Each fame is repeated twice.)

[This is 30p played as 60p.]

An apparent double image forms: When the projector shutter opens a second time on the same frame, your gaze point has already advanced half way to the ["anticipated"] position of the rectangle at the NEXT frame -- thus the rectangle is imaged onto your retina a second time, at a position displaced along the axis the object is moving.

>>>> The eye tracked rectangle doubles-up. <<<<<<<

[The second 1/60th display of 30p works the same way.]

[Note: the faster the object moves, the more your gaze moves, and the farther the displacement of the "double" image.

Slowing the shutter-speed only increases object blur thus turning the two distinct images into two blurred images which obscures them.]

As you track the rectangle while the projector flashes, the circle is flashed onto different positions on the retina: the circle will strobe. The camera usually tracks the motion of a foreground element in the scene; in this case, the rectangle is the foreground and the circle is the background. So the effect is usually called background strobing .

If, as in this example, the background comprises a single, small element, it will be mapped onto the retina in a periodic spatial pattern. [The strobe.]

In cinema, one of the functions of the cinematographer is to prevent excessive background strobing. He or she does this by controlling the speed of moving foreground elements with respect to the camera, and by controlling the visual content of the background. Background strobing only occurs when a foreground element is being eye tracked. If the cinematographer can make a good guess, based on the nature of the scene, on what elements the viewer will track, this will help to minimize the visibility of strobing artifacts.

Poyton goes on to explore how these artifacts will be more visiblw on a large screen rather than a TV -- and how CRTs differ from LCDs/DLPs.

Raymond Krystof · July 11th, 2003, 11:17 AM

Heath,

I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads?

Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier?

Heath McKnight · July 11th, 2003, 01:26 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Raymond Krystof : Heath,

I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads?

Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier? -->>>

Makes sense, except...It's not on the tape, it's when I'm feeding into the camera. I hooked up my friend's XL-1 to my camera and hard drives, and no problems with the signal.

heath

Dennis Adams · July 17th, 2003, 02:23 PM

It's particularly evident in the cheap "turn off your cell phone" animation that usually plays before the movie in some chains. Since they don't render with motion blur, *all* edges are hard, and split into pairs during motion due to the double-bladed shutter.

Same thing with 30p video displayed as 60i or 60p. 24p is even trickier due to the 2-3 pulldown -- it's like projecting a movie with a shutter that alternates between 2 blade and 3 blade every other frame.

Also, this is what causes the so-called "rainbow effect" with single-chip DLP projectors. Since the RGB images are temporally displaced, while your eye is tracking an object, the non-moving background breaks up -- any bright edges against dark backgrounds break-up with color fringing. It really bothers some people.

///d@

Betsy Moore · July 17th, 2003, 05:41 PM

I see really good "Buy Now" prices for HD1s on ebay but I don't see any for the HD10. Do you guys have any advice about where I can purcahse an HD10 for below list price?

I'd really appreciate any advice. Thanks!

Jeff McCutcheon · July 17th, 2003, 06:45 PM

How does the HD10U compare with a 3 chip camera like the XL-1 in terms of light sensitivity?
How does it compare to other single chippers like the Canon Elura?
Can you turn the gain off?

Thanks,

Jeff

Randall Morton · July 18th, 2003, 03:56 PM

B&H Photo. Just got mine today(HD10). They charged $3270 plus something close to actual shipping cost. Four year warranty for another $150. This is also a reputable company. When you buy from Ebay you never know.

Joe Russ · July 19th, 2003, 03:11 AM

yes, you can turn the gain off. i have only had experience with a gl-1 and a trv-950 (both 3 chip but smaller ccd) which both perform better in low light without gain. the low light on the jvc isn't very good (at least without AGC, i dont use it and i hear it doesnt do much anyway) but i dont think its a problem if you have control of the lighting....i dont think this is a camera for run-n-gun or average use...........my 2 cents anyway.

Heath McKnight · July 20th, 2003, 01:55 PM

I found out how to put the audio levels display up (no sign of what an adequate dB would be, though, which is bad), but couldn't find a way to control the levels. It didn't seem automatic, since a lav plugged in kept peaking.

Any clues? Totally auto? If the audio can't be controlled, then I give up (again) and may go with a mixer, but that might not do much.

If I still had my XL-1, I'd go with a DAT because I was never happy with the audio going through even a mixer into the XL-1.

heath

Steve Mullen · July 20th, 2003, 07:24 PM

The HD10 has AGC which means you don't need to know the dB -- only an indication that your mic is working.

In other words the limiter in the AGC prevents recording too high -- above -6dB. And, the Auto Gain in the AGC will bring up gain if audio is too low.

If you add a mixer it will mix -- but not set exact level. The relative levels will be passed through which is what you want.

The mixer output should be set to NOT overload the camcorder's input circuit -- which means it's output voltage must be for a mic input. This is normally the case for camcorder mounted mixer. (You do not want LINE level output.)

Heath McKnight · July 21st, 2003, 10:23 AM

I'm trying to figure out how to transfer a DV project from an XL-1 to my HD10 to have it on Hi Def. Is this possible without hardware, etc.?

Thanks,

heath

David Kennett · July 23rd, 2003, 03:26 PM

"The biggest problem is that file types cannot be mixed. If the first file in the bin is HD, then only HD files can be added. If it's SD, then only SD files."

I'm not sure why one would ever need to mix these two.

"It does not appear to accept AVI or MPG files at all."

Now this is more serious since one can't repurpose NTSC sources.

And, as you found out -- simply encoding TO the spec doesn't work.

I'm finding the same problem on the OS X side. A seemingly perfect MPEG-2-TS file is rejected for recording by the camcorder -- yet the camcorder decodes it to analog component output.

Chaim Bianco · July 23rd, 2003, 04:14 PM

dave k wrote:
>I think we need a utility co convert between M2T and MP2
>files while maintaining all parameters, without re-compressing.

i was under the impression that when using a utility to demux/de-multiplex an mpeg2-ts into its mpeg2+audio components (like Xmuxer on windows, for instance), it doesnt recompress on doing so.

July 9th, 2003, 09:54 PM	#77
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Any ideas why I'm getting video sparkles going to my HD10? This just started happening. I was dumping to tape (DV mode) from my tibook/new 7200 rpm firewire drive on the HD10 (again, DV mode). The first few times, no problem. But lately, I'm getting video sparkles and audio "scratches or glitches." It's not in the computer and the cable isn't bad (just bought a new one today)... Any ideas? FCP 3, btw. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 10th, 2003, 01:53 PM	#78
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Eye Tracking from Poyton EXAMPLE: A horizontally moving rectangle and a fixed circle are shot at 24fps with a 180 degree shutter. Then displayed at 24fps with a two bladed shutter. (Each fame is repeated twice.) [This is 30p played as 60p.] An apparent double image forms: When the projector shutter opens a second time on the same frame, your gaze point has already advanced half way to the ["anticipated"] position of the rectangle at the NEXT frame -- thus the rectangle is imaged onto your retina a second time, at a position displaced along the axis the object is moving. >>>> The eye tracked rectangle doubles-up. <<<<<<< [The second 1/60th display of 30p works the same way.] [Note: the faster the object moves, the more your gaze moves, and the farther the displacement of the "double" image. Slowing the shutter-speed only increases object blur thus turning the two distinct images into two blurred images which obscures them.] As you track the rectangle while the projector flashes, the circle is flashed onto different positions on the retina: the circle will strobe. The camera usually tracks the motion of a foreground element in the scene; in this case, the rectangle is the foreground and the circle is the background. So the effect is usually called background strobing . If, as in this example, the background comprises a single, small element, it will be mapped onto the retina in a periodic spatial pattern. [The strobe.] In cinema, one of the functions of the cinematographer is to prevent excessive background strobing. He or she does this by controlling the speed of moving foreground elements with respect to the camera, and by controlling the visual content of the background. Background strobing only occurs when a foreground element is being eye tracked. If the cinematographer can make a good guess, based on the nature of the scene, on what elements the viewer will track, this will help to minimize the visibility of strobing artifacts. Poyton goes on to explore how these artifacts will be more visiblw on a large screen rather than a TV -- and how CRTs differ from LCDs/DLPs. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 11th, 2003, 11:17 AM	#79
Raymond Krystof Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Santa Clarita, California Posts: 97	Speculation! Heath, I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads? Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier? __________________ Ray

July 11th, 2003, 01:26 PM	#80
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Re: Speculation! <<<-- Originally posted by Raymond Krystof : Heath, I haven’t had my HD10 long enough to really comment, but here’s a speculation. Have you tried cleaning the heads? I don’t know if it was a thread in this forum or on another forum altogether, but I read were someone was experiencing picture degradation with heavy pixilation. Turned out, after cleaning the heads everything got all better. I did note that a head cleaner tape was supplied with my HD10. Perhaps this format is more susceptible to dirty heads? Or, the head design driven by the format can clog up easier? -->>> Makes sense, except...It's not on the tape, it's when I'm feeding into the camera. I hooked up my friend's XL-1 to my camera and hard drives, and no problems with the signal. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 17th, 2003, 05:41 PM	#82
Betsy Moore Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 444	Buying an HD1 or 10 I see really good "Buy Now" prices for HD1s on ebay but I don't see any for the HD10. Do you guys have any advice about where I can purcahse an HD10 for below list price? I'd really appreciate any advice. Thanks!

July 9th, 2003, 03:23 PM	#76
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	David's precisely right. You will probably find the same phenominon on software DVD players versus stand alone televisions. The point is valid, however - don't rip on the picture until you see it on an intended display device. Of course, as I asked in a different thread, when you think about it there really is no good way of getting your material to an HDTV as of yet!

July 17th, 2003, 02:23 PM	#81
Dennis Adams Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 123	It's particularly evident in the cheap "turn off your cell phone" animation that usually plays before the movie in some chains. Since they don't render with motion blur, all edges are hard, and split into pairs during motion due to the double-bladed shutter. Same thing with 30p video displayed as 60i or 60p. 24p is even trickier due to the 2-3 pulldown -- it's like projecting a movie with a shutter that alternates between 2 blade and 3 blade every other frame. Also, this is what causes the so-called "rainbow effect" with single-chip DLP projectors. Since the RGB images are temporally displaced, while your eye is tracking an object, the non-moving background breaks up -- any bright edges against dark backgrounds break-up with color fringing. It really bothers some people. ///d@

July 17th, 2003, 06:45 PM	#83
Jeff McCutcheon Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 41	Light Sensitivity? How does the HD10U compare with a 3 chip camera like the XL-1 in terms of light sensitivity? How does it compare to other single chippers like the Canon Elura? Can you turn the gain off? Thanks, Jeff

July 18th, 2003, 03:56 PM	#84
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	B&H Photo. Just got mine today(HD10). They charged $3270 plus something close to actual shipping cost. Four year warranty for another $150. This is also a reputable company. When you buy from Ebay you never know.

July 19th, 2003, 03:11 AM	#85
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	yes, you can turn the gain off. i have only had experience with a gl-1 and a trv-950 (both 3 chip but smaller ccd) which both perform better in low light without gain. the low light on the jvc isn't very good (at least without AGC, i dont use it and i hear it doesnt do much anyway) but i dont think its a problem if you have control of the lighting....i dont think this is a camera for run-n-gun or average use...........my 2 cents anyway.

July 20th, 2003, 01:55 PM	#86
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Is there a way to control audio levels in the HD10? I found out how to put the audio levels display up (no sign of what an adequate dB would be, though, which is bad), but couldn't find a way to control the levels. It didn't seem automatic, since a lav plugged in kept peaking. Any clues? Totally auto? If the audio can't be controlled, then I give up (again) and may go with a mixer, but that might not do much. If I still had my XL-1, I'd go with a DAT because I was never happy with the audio going through even a mixer into the XL-1. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 20th, 2003, 07:24 PM	#87
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	The HD10 has AGC which means you don't need to know the dB -- only an indication that your mic is working. In other words the limiter in the AGC prevents recording too high -- above -6dB. And, the Auto Gain in the AGC will bring up gain if audio is too low. If you add a mixer it will mix -- but not set exact level. The relative levels will be passed through which is what you want. The mixer output should be set to NOT overload the camcorder's input circuit -- which means it's output voltage must be for a mic input. This is normally the case for camcorder mounted mixer. (You do not want LINE level output.) __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 21st, 2003, 10:23 AM	#88
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Best way to transfer DV to HDV via HD10 I'm trying to figure out how to transfer a DV project from an XL-1 to my HD10 to have it on Hi Def. Is this possible without hardware, etc.? Thanks, heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 23rd, 2003, 03:26 PM	#89
David Kennett Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Ridgeville, Ohio Posts: 407	HD10 software "The biggest problem is that file types cannot be mixed. If the first file in the bin is HD, then only HD files can be added. If it's SD, then only SD files." I'm not sure why one would ever need to mix these two. "It does not appear to accept AVI or MPG files at all." Now this is more serious since one can't repurpose NTSC sources. And, as you found out -- simply encoding TO the spec doesn't work. I'm finding the same problem on the OS X side. A seemingly perfect MPEG-2-TS file is rejected for recording by the camcorder -- yet the camcorder decodes it to analog component output. __________________ Dave

July 23rd, 2003, 04:14 PM	#90
Chaim Bianco Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Philadelphia , PA Posts: 39	dave k wrote: >I think we need a utility co convert between M2T and MP2 >files while maintaining all parameters, without re-compressing. i was under the impression that when using a utility to demux/de-multiplex an mpeg2-ts into its mpeg2+audio components (like Xmuxer on windows, for instance), it doesnt recompress on doing so.