HD1 and HD10 discontinued?

Graham Hickling · January 17th, 2006, 10:20 PM

Ah yes, I'm familiar with those threads. But given that the discussion on them ground to a halt in mid-air, without any clear resolution, I didn't make the connection between them and the earlier comment that edge enhancement on the HD1 can be tweaked.

I'd say that what those threads describe is "a headlong plunge into a black pit of reverse-engineering hell" rather than a "tweak"! ;)

Wayne Morellini · January 17th, 2006, 10:51 PM

Broadly, a similar process should apply to the HD1, so not really difficult as many of the other things attempted in alternative imaging.

Ken Hodson · January 17th, 2006, 11:22 PM

It would be nice if a tweak was found but the tweaks your mentioning are more of a mod, not really as simple as getting into an advanced menu (I wish). So if it seems simple to you then let us know when you've got it working.

I think JVC should drop an easter egg for that secret menu ;>)

Ed Hill · January 18th, 2006, 09:16 AM

Ken,

Good point. The HD10 was a great learning tool. Ben Buie and I made some money while learning about HD lighting and editing work-flow. The HD10 made it possible to make the On Our Way Up docudrama, some commercials and some music videos. Along the way I think my lighting, camera-handling and directing skills really improved. For a while, it was the first and only HD option for under $50K.

Now, several rental houses here in Atlanta and elsewhere have FX1 and HD100 rental cameras available. Atlanta freelancer Porter Versafelt has used his FX1 for shoots for Johnson and Johnson (corporate stuff) and shooting Cannes Film Festival for E! television.

If the marketing/engineering decision makers at JVC had put FULL manual shutter / aperture control on the HD10 and solved that canned audio sound, we would have been happier with it. But even with all the flaws we discovered and worked around with the HD10, the camera still proved the commercial demand for HD, and gave many of us our first HD pieces on our demo reels.

My biggest discovery was that paying clients don't care whether you shoot HD or SD, as long as the final product meets their needs and looks good. So we started shooting everyhing we could with the HD10. That HD10 camera made HD doable, even for lower budget client projects at $3000 to $5000, even if the output was letterboxed SD in 2 cases. Porter says he's using the FX1 for both SD or HD. But the way he looks at it, since the FX1 can record as HDV, DV and DVCAM formats, he now owns 1 camera that can do many different format projects. This reduces his need to rent cameras.

Yes, I would love to get my hands on an FX1 or HD100. With 3 chips, total manual control available and dedicated buttons for functions, instead of those tedious menus, the newer cameras have solved the problems inherent to the HD10. But lets give credit to the HD10 for getting us and many other filmmakers started in HiDef.

Tom Roper · January 19th, 2006, 10:47 PM

I purchased "On Our Way Up," the 720p version and enjoyed it.

But commenting on the HD10 itself, the movie was a watershed because I felt the reduced EE in the video was more than worth the money I saved by getting the lower end HD1.

I decided not to repeat that mistake when I came around to the Sony. In spending the extra coin for the ZX1 over the FX1, while not disappointed, it's not the bargain the HD10 is either.

But that said, of all the criticism heaped upon the HD1, the one that ultimately had the worst impact for me was my inability to get steady hand-held shots from the OIS. It looks very very good when shot with a tripod with the appropriate filters and techniques discussed here many times. The Sony is not the holy grail either although it is rich if you like native 60i. It's a fair size bigger than my HD1 but I don't need to carry the tripod.

Steve Mullen · January 20th, 2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Hill

If the marketing/engineering decision makers at JVC had put FULL manual shutter / aperture control on the HD10 and solved that canned audio sound, we would have been happier with it.

Both were easily solved. A Beachtek box bypassed the JVC XLR box. Or, a direct 1/8-inch connection as used with the HD1.

There was never any need for full Manual Control. That was a myth. I've been using an HD100:

1) With the HD100 you set shutter-speed as appropriate for 24fps or 30fps. With the HD1/HD10 the shutter-speed should be 1/30th. You will almost never change the shutter-speed on either.

2) With the HD100 you then engage the correct ND filter. With the HD1/HD10 you screw-on the appropriate ND filter.

3) With the HD100 you adjust the aperature. With the HD1/HD10 you adjust the exposure control.

You work the same way with both. In fact, with both you even limit gain to +6dB.

Heath McKnight · January 20th, 2006, 11:46 PM

Of course, using ND filters stopped the auto control on the HD10, but knowing that without ND, I could only control only shutter or iris, not both. That wasn't a professional camera. BUT, we've gotten some wonderful footage with it, and I believe Ben Buie and Ed Hill proved that over and over.

heath

Ken Hodson · January 21st, 2006, 01:53 AM

I hear what you saying Steve. I have almost found the best way to work the cam in any situation. That said, most will want the cam in 1/60th, where as the cam almost insists in being at 1/30th when in HD mode, like you say. So then the option becomes locking at 1/60th and applying ND untill the exposure will no longer "pump", this of course drops the cam out of ideal exposure, but usually not by much. In other situations with ample light you can sometimes take a reading at 1/60 and ND down then lock exposure, but that can be flakey as you need a lot of light (esp. indoor) or it will go to 1/30th. Of course there are many variations to this but a simple firmware update where the Sports modes 1/250th preset could have been switched for the far more practical 1/60th. Unfortunately this most simple of requests fell on deaf ears at JVC. I mean seriously you give a cam with poor low light capability a 1/250th lock? But not 1/60th? Come on! The engineers really did need a kick in the @#$s.
I use it mostly as a studio cam which makes its limitations easier to work with.

On the flip side, I have found the 480p60 mode to be highly underated. For one it likes to always revert to 1/60th unlike the 1/30th of HD mode. It has far, far more detail then the DV mode and in fact comes very close to the detail level of the HD mode. It has a good stop or more light sensitivity over the HD mode. It is always 60p which enables easy conversion to 24p or nice slow-mo's from everything you shoot.

Steve-"You work the same way with both. In fact, with both you even limit gain to +6dB."

How do you manage that. The option is AGC. Is that a set +6dB? You recommend always leaving it on? Or are you refering to always shooting below a certail F-stop?

Dave Ferdinand · January 25th, 2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

3) With the HD100 you adjust the aperature. With the HD1/HD10 you adjust the exposure control.

But when you use the automatic exposure button the shutter lock is disabled. In other words you can't use the aperture/shutter settings while working with the AE.

I haven't tried Ken's suggestion of lock the shutter at 1/250th using the sports mode and then using the AE to set the aperture - it might work but you still don't know which aperture you're using.

Ken Hodson · January 25th, 2006, 06:15 PM

If you press the S/A button in rapid fashion you can cycle through the settings and check what the F-stop is. If you pause and wait on a particular setting (over one second) it will it select it, putting you into priority mode for that function. So if your shutter is locked and you want to check the F-stop, cycle through and see what it is. Do not stop on F-stop or you will loose your shutter lock. Understand? You can always check what you F-stop is. It isn't perfect but it works. In the same vein you can see what you shutter speed is when in Exposure Lock mode. Just don't stop on it or you will loose your shutter lock.

Dave Ferdinand · January 25th, 2006, 09:38 PM

Yes, yes. I knew about this but forgot! It's true, you can check what shutter speed it is in and same with aperture but you can't really lock both of them at the same time. I will try to do the sports mode + AE thing to see if it works but I think the only way to have control of both settings would be to choose one and lock the camera on it and then use ND filters to control the other, but that's hardly has versatile and fast as messing with full manual controls.

Ken Hodson · January 25th, 2006, 10:37 PM

True, it is not a run and gun cam. But if your a filmaker in the classic sense where most all shots are locked down and composed, it works well. Very well infact.
The point is, depending on light levels (straight through or ND filter reduced) the cam will settle on a shutter speed. Then you just have to adjust and lock the shutter. If it is more of a movement shot it can be better to lock the shutter (esp. if you want 1/60th) and let the auto exposure do its thing or reduce the light with ND's untill the exposure no longer pumps.
But alas I agree if they just offered the simple ability to lock the shutter at 1/60th (instead of only at 1/250th in Sports preset) they would have maintained a much bigger fan base for the cam and hence the HD100 that followed. A pissed custommer never comes back. Just ask Heath!
I still pray that someone will hack the firmware and offer a version that switches the 1/250th Sports mode to 1/60th. If they find away to drop EE on the HD1 as well, indi filmakers would scoop them up of ebay.

Ken Hodson · January 25th, 2006, 10:44 PM

True, it is not a run and gun cam. But if your a filmaker in the classic sense where most all shots are locked down and composed, it works well. Very well infact.
The point is, depending on light levels (straight through or ND filter reduced) the cam will settle on a shutter speed. Then you just have to adjust and lock the shutter. If it is more of a movement shot it can be better to lock the shutter (esp. if you want 1/60th) and let the auto exposure do its thing or reduce the light with ND's untill the exposure no longer pumps.
But alas I agree if they just offered the simple ability to lock the shutter at 1/60th (instead of only at 1/250th in Sports preset) they would have maintained a much bigger fan base for the cam and hence the HD100 that followed. A pissed custommer never comes back. Just ask Heath!
I still pray that someone will hack the firmware and offer a version that switches the 1/250th Sports mode to 1/60th usefull mode.

Ken Hodson · January 25th, 2006, 10:49 PM

If anyone has any tricks/solutions to maximizing shooting with these cams, I highly encourage you to speak up. This forum especially, considering the agressive nature of the early days of the forum where these little cams took the blunt of all those who hated HDV, could use a little community. If you have found something that has given you great results please share.
Thanks

Graham Hickling · January 25th, 2006, 11:16 PM

What Ken just said ... and also, someone mentioned dealing with the HD1's EE in post. I'd be interested to hear more about that.

January 17th, 2006, 11:22 PM	#33
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	It would be nice if a tweak was found but the tweaks your mentioning are more of a mod, not really as simple as getting into an advanced menu (I wish). So if it seems simple to you then let us know when you've got it working. I think JVC should drop an easter egg for that secret menu ;>) __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 18th, 2006, 09:16 AM	#34
Ed Hill Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA, USA Posts: 104	Ken, Good point. The HD10 was a great learning tool. Ben Buie and I made some money while learning about HD lighting and editing work-flow. The HD10 made it possible to make the On Our Way Up docudrama, some commercials and some music videos. Along the way I think my lighting, camera-handling and directing skills really improved. For a while, it was the first and only HD option for under $50K. Now, several rental houses here in Atlanta and elsewhere have FX1 and HD100 rental cameras available. Atlanta freelancer Porter Versafelt has used his FX1 for shoots for Johnson and Johnson (corporate stuff) and shooting Cannes Film Festival for E! television. If the marketing/engineering decision makers at JVC had put FULL manual shutter / aperture control on the HD10 and solved that canned audio sound, we would have been happier with it. But even with all the flaws we discovered and worked around with the HD10, the camera still proved the commercial demand for HD, and gave many of us our first HD pieces on our demo reels. My biggest discovery was that paying clients don't care whether you shoot HD or SD, as long as the final product meets their needs and looks good. So we started shooting everyhing we could with the HD10. That HD10 camera made HD doable, even for lower budget client projects at $3000 to $5000, even if the output was letterboxed SD in 2 cases. Porter says he's using the FX1 for both SD or HD. But the way he looks at it, since the FX1 can record as HDV, DV and DVCAM formats, he now owns 1 camera that can do many different format projects. This reduces his need to rent cameras. Yes, I would love to get my hands on an FX1 or HD100. With 3 chips, total manual control available and dedicated buttons for functions, instead of those tedious menus, the newer cameras have solved the problems inherent to the HD10. But lets give credit to the HD10 for getting us and many other filmmakers started in HiDef. __________________ Ed Hill HighlyDef Productions, Atlanta, GA prblog.edhillpr.com Video and Online Advertising ed@highlydef.com

January 20th, 2006, 11:46 PM	#37
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Of course, using ND filters stopped the auto control on the HD10, but knowing that without ND, I could only control only shutter or iris, not both. That wasn't a professional camera. BUT, we've gotten some wonderful footage with it, and I believe Ben Buie and Ed Hill proved that over and over. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 21st, 2006, 01:53 AM	#38
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I hear what you saying Steve. I have almost found the best way to work the cam in any situation. That said, most will want the cam in 1/60th, where as the cam almost insists in being at 1/30th when in HD mode, like you say. So then the option becomes locking at 1/60th and applying ND untill the exposure will no longer "pump", this of course drops the cam out of ideal exposure, but usually not by much. In other situations with ample light you can sometimes take a reading at 1/60 and ND down then lock exposure, but that can be flakey as you need a lot of light (esp. indoor) or it will go to 1/30th. Of course there are many variations to this but a simple firmware update where the Sports modes 1/250th preset could have been switched for the far more practical 1/60th. Unfortunately this most simple of requests fell on deaf ears at JVC. I mean seriously you give a cam with poor low light capability a 1/250th lock? But not 1/60th? Come on! The engineers really did need a kick in the @#$s. I use it mostly as a studio cam which makes its limitations easier to work with. On the flip side, I have found the 480p60 mode to be highly underated. For one it likes to always revert to 1/60th unlike the 1/30th of HD mode. It has far, far more detail then the DV mode and in fact comes very close to the detail level of the HD mode. It has a good stop or more light sensitivity over the HD mode. It is always 60p which enables easy conversion to 24p or nice slow-mo's from everything you shoot. Steve-"You work the same way with both. In fact, with both you even limit gain to +6dB." How do you manage that. The option is AGC. Is that a set +6dB? You recommend always leaving it on? Or are you refering to always shooting below a certail F-stop? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 25th, 2006, 06:15 PM	#40
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	If you press the S/A button in rapid fashion you can cycle through the settings and check what the F-stop is. If you pause and wait on a particular setting (over one second) it will it select it, putting you into priority mode for that function. So if your shutter is locked and you want to check the F-stop, cycle through and see what it is. Do not stop on F-stop or you will loose your shutter lock. Understand? You can always check what you F-stop is. It isn't perfect but it works. In the same vein you can see what you shutter speed is when in Exposure Lock mode. Just don't stop on it or you will loose your shutter lock. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech. Last edited by Ken Hodson; January 25th, 2006 at 07:52 PM.

January 17th, 2006, 10:20 PM	#31
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Ah yes, I'm familiar with those threads. But given that the discussion on them ground to a halt in mid-air, without any clear resolution, I didn't make the connection between them and the earlier comment that edge enhancement on the HD1 can be tweaked. I'd say that what those threads describe is "a headlong plunge into a black pit of reverse-engineering hell" rather than a "tweak"! ;)

January 17th, 2006, 10:51 PM	#32
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	Broadly, a similar process should apply to the HD1, so not really difficult as many of the other things attempted in alternative imaging.

January 19th, 2006, 10:47 PM	#35
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I purchased "On Our Way Up," the 720p version and enjoyed it. But commenting on the HD10 itself, the movie was a watershed because I felt the reduced EE in the video was more than worth the money I saved by getting the lower end HD1. I decided not to repeat that mistake when I came around to the Sony. In spending the extra coin for the ZX1 over the FX1, while not disappointed, it's not the bargain the HD10 is either. But that said, of all the criticism heaped upon the HD1, the one that ultimately had the worst impact for me was my inability to get steady hand-held shots from the OIS. It looks very very good when shot with a tripod with the appropriate filters and techniques discussed here many times. The Sony is not the holy grail either although it is rich if you like native 60i. It's a fair size bigger than my HD1 but I don't need to carry the tripod.

January 25th, 2006, 09:38 PM	#41
Dave Ferdinand Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 359	Yes, yes. I knew about this but forgot! It's true, you can check what shutter speed it is in and same with aperture but you can't really lock both of them at the same time. I will try to do the sports mode + AE thing to see if it works but I think the only way to have control of both settings would be to choose one and lock the camera on it and then use ND filters to control the other, but that's hardly has versatile and fast as messing with full manual controls. __________________ Do or do not, there is no try.

January 25th, 2006, 10:37 PM	#42
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	True, it is not a run and gun cam. But if your a filmaker in the classic sense where most all shots are locked down and composed, it works well. Very well infact. The point is, depending on light levels (straight through or ND filter reduced) the cam will settle on a shutter speed. Then you just have to adjust and lock the shutter. If it is more of a movement shot it can be better to lock the shutter (esp. if you want 1/60th) and let the auto exposure do its thing or reduce the light with ND's untill the exposure no longer pumps. But alas I agree if they just offered the simple ability to lock the shutter at 1/60th (instead of only at 1/250th in Sports preset) they would have maintained a much bigger fan base for the cam and hence the HD100 that followed. A pissed custommer never comes back. Just ask Heath! I still pray that someone will hack the firmware and offer a version that switches the 1/250th Sports mode to 1/60th. If they find away to drop EE on the HD1 as well, indi filmakers would scoop them up of ebay. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 25th, 2006, 10:44 PM	#43
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	True, it is not a run and gun cam. But if your a filmaker in the classic sense where most all shots are locked down and composed, it works well. Very well infact. The point is, depending on light levels (straight through or ND filter reduced) the cam will settle on a shutter speed. Then you just have to adjust and lock the shutter. If it is more of a movement shot it can be better to lock the shutter (esp. if you want 1/60th) and let the auto exposure do its thing or reduce the light with ND's untill the exposure no longer pumps. But alas I agree if they just offered the simple ability to lock the shutter at 1/60th (instead of only at 1/250th in Sports preset) they would have maintained a much bigger fan base for the cam and hence the HD100 that followed. A pissed custommer never comes back. Just ask Heath! I still pray that someone will hack the firmware and offer a version that switches the 1/250th Sports mode to 1/60th usefull mode. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 25th, 2006, 10:49 PM	#44
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	If anyone has any tricks/solutions to maximizing shooting with these cams, I highly encourage you to speak up. This forum especially, considering the agressive nature of the early days of the forum where these little cams took the blunt of all those who hated HDV, could use a little community. If you have found something that has given you great results please share. Thanks __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

January 25th, 2006, 11:16 PM	#45
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	What Ken just said ... and also, someone mentioned dealing with the HD1's EE in post. I'd be interested to hear more about that.