PD1 SD with 32 Bit?

[Marco Ba]

>> On my HD10U SD footage, I get 24-bit in Premiere Pro 1.51 using MainConcepts MPEG Pro.

This is interesting. So it's either the PD1 producing a different stream or it's Vegas analyzing something wrong (or it's the Vegas capture tool producing a strange kind of header).

>> Marco - can you email me a 15-second raw M2T stream from the PD1?

Mailing you a short file is no problem. But I think 15 seconds is too much for the space of my mail account (not sure - I think it's limited to 5 or 10 MB). Wouldn't be just 2 - 3 seconds enough?

Marco

[Ken Hodson]

"The SD mode uses MP@ML for encoding (same as Sony's SD-based IMX and MicroMV and all DVD camera formats)."

Where did you get that from? The SD mode of the HDV codec matches the HD mode. 19mbits/s, 16/9, but uses double the frame rate (60p)

[Wayne Morellini]

If this helps:

http://www.geocities.com/mammacow3/mpeg2.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/200407030..._2/mpeg1_2.htm
http://web.archive.org/web/200406190...eg-tables2.htm

[Graham Jones]

"Your right that it only has two modes 576p25 (downsampled 720p) and 576p50"


Well, it has three modes if you count old fashioned DV!

By the way it might be relevant to note that, unless you're outputting that old DV, the PD1 outputs 50p only.

Whether you output 25p or 50p footage, it comes out as 50p!

I'll say that again - if you output 25p it emerges NOT as 25p, NOT as 50i... but 50p.

It doesn't really matter because it's just every frame twice, but NLEs can get confused, or at least they did when I owned the cam.

This has lead to great confusion in the past, because the large number of HD1/0 owners who heard about it from the small number of PD1 owners often assumed it was a user error - that users were mistakenly shooting 50p not 25p, or that it was interlaced or something.

Nope - the PD1 outputs as 50p not only when you shoot 50p, but when footage is 25p.

Just another quirk of the PD1, probably unconnected, but worth mentionning just in case.

[Wayne Morellini]

I just remembered something, I don't know where ever I got to mention it before. Often double frame rate schemes use a higher bandwidth. If this is the case, then using a mechanical/electric cinema film shutter to convert 50p to 25p (with 180 degree equivalent shutter) should yield much better compression. This would be a real boon to people using it for indie.

What are the data rates of the modes?

[Graham Jones]

"What are the data rates of the modes?"

I'm not sure, as I sold my camera a while back.

However, I remember attaching the cam to a progressive monitor using the component cables and watching pre-recorded 25p footage (again, printed to tape within the 50p framework) and the quality was so good that the guys in the post production house said it looked like HDCAM.

I never saw the footage look that good again, though! It occured to me a great workflow would have been to shoot with the cam and then transfer all footage to DigiBeta via component...

Of course, a better workflow would have been to unlock the firmware and the HD capability!

I've finally gotten over that yearning now that I no longer own the cam...

[Marco Ba]

I capture the PD1 HiRes stuff with the JVC capture tool and import it into Vegas. What I have there is 25p.

Marco

[Wayne Morellini]

Do you mean that you captured hi-resolution (more than the normal SD frame) from the components ports?


Graham,

What i meant was what was the different data rates in Mb/s for the different modes?

Quality, I agree, if it is 19Mb/s SD, then that is nothing to be sneezed at. Pity they didn't do this instead of the GR-DV3000, I think a lot of people would have flown at for the price.

Maybe I should pick up a PD1, or HD10, for a few hundred latter this year. There must be a few floating around with all the new HD cameras that have come out.

[Graham Jones]

"I capture the PD1 HiRes stuff with the JVC capture tool and import it into Vegas. What I have there is 25p"

Yes, I remember Vegas not being confused. Another great one was Sonic DVDit Pro 6, which accepted the m2t provided you renamed the extension mpg, didn't get thrown by the 50p structure either and burned the best quality PD1 DVDs I ever saw! Then, of course, there was Mpeg Edit Studio Pro LE which was tuned specifically for the PD1, just like it was tuned for the HD1/0.

The impression I had was that, as time was passing, new software releases were becoming more aware of the notion of 50p packaging of 25p and not getting so confused. I am not sure what the situation is now, as I no longer have access to the cam.

"Do you mean that you captured hi-resolution (more than the normal SD frame) from the components ports?"

No, just viewed it on a progressive monitor. Yes, I think JVC described it as Extended Definition in some of their publicity material and it was my (non-techie) understanding that it was exploiting SD space slightly better traditional SD.

"What i meant was what was the different data rates in Mb/s for the different modes?"

I simply don't know, sorry - I'm not very technical!

"Maybe I should pick up a PD1, or HD10, for a few hundred latter this year. There must be a few floating around with all the new HD cameras that have come out."

I think you could get one for a good price. I originally ordered the HD10 and actually changed the order to a PD1 because of the frame rate. I wouldn't do that again - I am more comfortable with 30p than I was two years ago. I would recommend a HD10. The PD1 was very nice when connected to a big progressive screen by component, but not so hot when simply editing and outputting with computer software.

In the end, the best thing about the PD1, in my opinion, was that it was true 16:9 25p. That could look very nice sometimes.

[Ken Hodson]

Originally Posted by Wayne Morellini

I just remembered something, I don't know where ever I got to mention it before. Often double frame rate schemes use a higher bandwidth. If this is the case, then using a mechanical/electric cinema film shutter to convert 50p to 25p (with 180 degree equivalent shutter) should yield much better compression. This would be a real boon to people using it for indie.

What are the data rates of the modes?

They use the exact same compression. The 25p mode is downsampled from 720p and recorded at 25p in a 50p wrapper. The 50p SD mode records twice the frames at double the GOP and half the resolution. Both use the same bandwidth. If the Hi-Res mode actually captured SD and not HD then downsampled to SD then yes there would be an advantage. But as it is, no. Same bandwidth.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Graham Jones Senior

"Do you mean that you captured hi-resolution (more than the normal SD frame) from the components ports?"

No, just viewed it on a progressive monitor. Yes, I think JVC described it as Extended Definition in some of their publicity material and it was my (non-techie) understanding that it was exploiting SD space slightly better traditional SD.

"What i meant was what was the different data rates in Mb/s for the different modes?"

I simply don't know, sorry - I'm not very technical!

Actually there is a way, either the editor would tell you what rate the clip is, or you could quote the megabytes of a clip and the length down to the second, for clips shot in different modes. I could do a rough calculation from there.


Component resolution test:

I have just thought, if anybody wanted to find out the resolution of the camera live through component in hires mode, you could do it filming a test chart and a true 1280 pixel wide TV monitor in the different modes. Setting up the camera and TV for best resolution, the TV either will tell you what resolution it is using (but that may not be accurate) but you can tell accurately by a change in the res charts. I must point out I am not talking about the resolution of recorded footage or testing it, but the controversy of what it pouts out via component.

[Wayne Morellini]

Originally Posted by Ken Hodson

They use the exact same compression. The 25p mode is down sampled from 720p and recorded at 25p in a 50p wrapper. The 50p SD mode records twice the frames at double the GOP and half the resolution. Both use the same bandwidth. If the Hi-Res mode actually captured SD and not HD then down sampled to SD then yes there would be an advantage. But as it is, no. Same bandwidth.

I virtually never say this (except with a certain German engineer) but I am confused, about what you meant. Ken, are you saying that the 25p and 50p SD modes (except MiniDV Dv codec mode) of the camera use the 19.6Mb/s same data rate as the 720p mode of the HD10?

Thanks for you help anyway, what do you think of my res chart testing idea? I know that this may be of little interest to people now, but if the component hi-res mode turns out to be uncompressed the HDU-1 HDSDI uncompressed recording unit by Keith Wakeham may get component in eventually. There is also an expensive component to HDSDI adaptor that could be used.

Wayne.

[Graham Jones]

By the way, the great image I saw on the progressive monitor was from a tape playing in the camera.

I never thought to take off the lens cap, switch to record mode and see what it looked live!

[Marco Ba]

"Do you mean that you captured hi-resolution (more than the normal SD frame) from the components ports?"

I captured HiRes 25p as .m2t-stream via firewire.

Marco

[Wayne Morellini]

Thanks Marco.