Jvc Gr-pd1 at DVinfo.net

Hugo Pinto · June 21st, 2005, 08:44 AM

Hi all,

I just bought a JVC GR PD1 (yap, in europe we still get the chopped-down version of the HD1...) and I started importing clips with a Mac using iMovide HD (5.x). What I can't figure out is why shootings I did at Hires (25p) resolution are played back at twice the speed.

Can it be because the camera is being read at 50p instead of 25p?

Do you know if there is an oft-the-shelf software package that handles the GR-PD1 transport stream correctly? What would be my editing options?

Thanks in advance,

Hugo Pinto

Tommy James · June 21st, 2005, 08:48 PM

Why do you call it chopped down ? In America we get 1280x659 pixels and thats almost the achievable limit of the 720p format. In Europe the 625p format is almost the 1280x659 pixels that you actually get even in Europe so what is the difference? Maybe its your television that is chopped down but your computer monitor should be able to display the full resolution

Hugo Pinto · June 22nd, 2005, 01:32 AM

Well,

I called it chopped down because the GR-PD1 (PAL) always outputs in 720x576, whether it's in Hi-RES, PS50 or DV. The main differences are:

HI-RES: 720x576 with 1280x659 effective CCD pixels, 25p
PS-50: 720x576 with 941x485 (16:9)/839x576 (4:3) effective CCD pixels, 50p
DV: 720x576 with 839 x 576 effective CCD pixels, 50i

So the output is always PAL-compatible resolution, which makes the PD1 a good (but expensive) choice to shoot progressive SD.

Hugo

Dave Ferdinand · June 22nd, 2005, 11:51 AM

So it's not really an HD camera? That sucks big time.

Tommy James · June 22nd, 2005, 04:48 PM

First of all when the GR-PD1 was introduced there was no market for an HD camera in Europe. If HD was offered people would simply not buy it because they were not yet ready for it so the marketing trick is to rebox the camera and sell it as a progressive scan camera thats meets the PAL 625p specification. This camera is sold as having the capabality to display all 625 lines of resolution but the PAL specification only requires that 576 of 625 lines need to be displayed. So doesnt that tell you that the PAL specifications are being exceeded? The trick is finding a device that will display all 659 lines of resolution and if you have a halfway decent computer monitor you should be able to display 1280 x 720. Also if you had a PC instead of a MAC you would have installed an HD capture device as software that came with the camera. But you only find out about the HD capture software after JVC has your money and you can't return the camera without paying a restocking fee. Imagine that a consumer wanting to return a camera because he got more than what he paid for LOL. But thats the consumer for you and he has his silly reasons because he thinks that high definition is not compatible with PAL and high definition is no good because it shows the wrinkles . Well 659p is halfway compatible with 576p and halfway compatible with 720p. Also JVC sells a weird 1250i television that upconverts 625i and 625p to 1250i or 1500i. So maybe now you can stop worrying about conforming to some PAL specification which is a straight jacked that the camera will never conform to and really start to exploit the high definition capabilities of your new camcorder. And stop listening to those JVC reps in Europe who only tell you what you want to hear and who only want to hold you back.

Hugo Pinto · June 24th, 2005, 03:17 AM

Ok,

I'm amazed. It seems that the transport stream coming out of the camera is 1024x576, which can easily upscale to HD. So I definitely take back my "chopped-down" comment (and feel a whole lot better for it).

Unfortunately, I have another problem: I'm using MPEG Streamclip to demux the transport stream to an .m2v. However, the only format Streamclip does not propose to scale the video is 720x576, so I assume that that's the format Streamclip is recognizing the .m2t.

Do you guys use any other demuxing tool that may take advantage of the full stream? Am I doing anything wrong?

Thanks in advance,

Hugo Pinto

Steve Crisdale · June 25th, 2005, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugo Pinto

Ok,

I'm amazed. It seems that the transport stream coming out of the camera is 1024x576, which can easily upscale to HD. So I definitely take back my "chopped-down" comment (and feel a whole lot better for it).

Unfortunately, I have another problem: I'm using MPEG Streamclip to demux the transport stream to an .m2v. However, the only format Streamclip does not propose to scale the video is 720x576, so I assume that that's the format Streamclip is recognizing the .m2t.

Do you guys use any other demuxing tool that may take advantage of the full stream? Am I doing anything wrong?

Thanks in advance,

Hugo Pinto

Not sure why you want to demux... but many editing tools aren't/weren't up to scratch for HDV/HD resolution material - they were more for DV and DVD production, hence the PAL DVD level rez of 720x576.

The situation is changing rapidly (actually has been for the past 16-18months!!) and appz such as Womble, TMPGEnc V3 XPress are now better able to handle this stuff... If you're more serious, I'd suggest you get a fully featured NLE - like Vegas...

TMPGEnc V3 XPress has some pretty cool filters that come in handy with HD10 chroma noise, so it may be of some extra benefit to you.

BTW, there aren't many programs that "recognise" HDV *.m2t You may find changing the file extension from .m2t too .mpg allows more players and programs to work with your clips. Only a hand-full of NLEs are capable of reading HDV *.m2t captured directly from a HDV camera.

Graham Jones · July 2nd, 2005, 11:20 AM

New blog about PD1:

http://jvcgr-pd1.blogspot.com/

Robin Hemerik · November 20th, 2005, 07:34 AM

Hi, another question about the PAL GR-PD1.

A few months ago, I was able to use it for one day. I tried the 30p mode, but although the image looked great for SD, it had an intense motion flicker. Not smooth at all. It was very hard to shoot some decent footage with nice smooth motion, even when we set the camera on a tripod. It reminded me of a 15fps internet-webcam.

I have little experience with progressive camera's, but could the motion flicker be a result of the fact that PAL is 50i, while the camera seems to capture 30p. I know 25p is suitable for PAL, and 30p is better for NTSC.

*edit* Just found out that the PAL version actually is 25p. Probably it is just my lack of skills then ;)

Ken Hodson · November 22nd, 2005, 04:38 PM

There is no 30p mode on the PD1. You must have been in 25p mode with a high shutter speed.

Hugo Pinto- "I'm amazed. It seems that the transport stream coming out of the camera is 1024x576, which can easily upscale to HD. So I definitely take back my "chopped-down" comment (and feel a whole lot better for it)."

I have read this befor and am puzzled by it. I asked Ken Freed of JVC directly and he stated all output from the cam is 720x576. The 1024x576 number is the proper pixel output for 16x9 image. Where are you reading the pixel resolution? Inside the NLE?

How does the 50p mode read out? Is it 720x576 or is it expanded as well?

Heath McKnight · November 23rd, 2005, 09:49 PM

Hugo,

We got off topic; why don't you re-post the editing question on our HDV editing board:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=63

heath

Ken Hodson · November 24th, 2005, 02:28 AM

I would say his best source of reply would be in this forum. A cross post never hurts especially if it is invited, but very few of the general HDV users have more than a brief rememberance of these cams. Especially the PD1!

Heath McKnight · November 24th, 2005, 08:56 AM

His first question was related to editing, hence the link. But I think we should keep the majority of this here, because of the discussion.

heath

Wolfgang Schmid · November 26th, 2005, 02:31 PM

Yes, I have also seen that the PD1 has PAL-SD, so 720x576. And yes, there have been consequent rumors that the material is downpatched 720p material.

More important, the material can be blown up to 720 25p in a nice way. I tend to do that, by capturing the material with the JVC capture tool, and then I convert it to a 720 25p intermediate (either Cineform oder also Canopus HQ). Works fine so far.

Troy Haines · November 29th, 2005, 05:12 PM

I had the same problem with my PD1 but I use a pc not a mac.At the time after much searching no NLE's are aware of the PD1 25P mode. Sony Vegas 6c is the only software I'm aware of that has resolved the problem.

June 21st, 2005, 08:44 AM	#1
Hugo Pinto Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lisbon, Portugal Posts: 92	Jvc Gr-pd1 Hi all, I just bought a JVC GR PD1 (yap, in europe we still get the chopped-down version of the HD1...) and I started importing clips with a Mac using iMovide HD (5.x). What I can't figure out is why shootings I did at Hires (25p) resolution are played back at twice the speed. Can it be because the camera is being read at 50p instead of 25p? Do you know if there is an oft-the-shelf software package that handles the GR-PD1 transport stream correctly? What would be my editing options? Thanks in advance, Hugo Pinto

June 22nd, 2005, 01:32 AM	#3
Hugo Pinto Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lisbon, Portugal Posts: 92	Chopped down... Well, I called it chopped down because the GR-PD1 (PAL) always outputs in 720x576, whether it's in Hi-RES, PS50 or DV. The main differences are: HI-RES: 720x576 with 1280x659 effective CCD pixels, 25p PS-50: 720x576 with 941x485 (16:9)/839x576 (4:3) effective CCD pixels, 50p DV: 720x576 with 839 x 576 effective CCD pixels, 50i So the output is always PAL-compatible resolution, which makes the PD1 a good (but expensive) choice to shoot progressive SD. Hugo

June 22nd, 2005, 11:51 AM	#4
Dave Ferdinand Major Player Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 359	So it's not really an HD camera? That sucks big time. __________________ Do or do not, there is no try.

July 2nd, 2005, 11:20 AM	#8
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	New blog about PD1: http://jvcgr-pd1.blogspot.com/ __________________ www.irishfilmmaker.com

November 22nd, 2005, 04:38 PM	#10
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	There is no 30p mode on the PD1. You must have been in 25p mode with a high shutter speed. Hugo Pinto- "I'm amazed. It seems that the transport stream coming out of the camera is 1024x576, which can easily upscale to HD. So I definitely take back my "chopped-down" comment (and feel a whole lot better for it)." I have read this befor and am puzzled by it. I asked Ken Freed of JVC directly and he stated all output from the cam is 720x576. The 1024x576 number is the proper pixel output for 16x9 image. Where are you reading the pixel resolution? Inside the NLE? How does the 50p mode read out? Is it 720x576 or is it expanded as well? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

June 21st, 2005, 08:48 PM	#2
Tommy James suspended -- contact admin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 214	Why do you call it chopped down ? In America we get 1280x659 pixels and thats almost the achievable limit of the 720p format. In Europe the 625p format is almost the 1280x659 pixels that you actually get even in Europe so what is the difference? Maybe its your television that is chopped down but your computer monitor should be able to display the full resolution

June 22nd, 2005, 04:48 PM	#5
Tommy James suspended -- contact admin Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 214	First of all when the GR-PD1 was introduced there was no market for an HD camera in Europe. If HD was offered people would simply not buy it because they were not yet ready for it so the marketing trick is to rebox the camera and sell it as a progressive scan camera thats meets the PAL 625p specification. This camera is sold as having the capabality to display all 625 lines of resolution but the PAL specification only requires that 576 of 625 lines need to be displayed. So doesnt that tell you that the PAL specifications are being exceeded? The trick is finding a device that will display all 659 lines of resolution and if you have a halfway decent computer monitor you should be able to display 1280 x 720. Also if you had a PC instead of a MAC you would have installed an HD capture device as software that came with the camera. But you only find out about the HD capture software after JVC has your money and you can't return the camera without paying a restocking fee. Imagine that a consumer wanting to return a camera because he got more than what he paid for LOL. But thats the consumer for you and he has his silly reasons because he thinks that high definition is not compatible with PAL and high definition is no good because it shows the wrinkles . Well 659p is halfway compatible with 576p and halfway compatible with 720p. Also JVC sells a weird 1250i television that upconverts 625i and 625p to 1250i or 1500i. So maybe now you can stop worrying about conforming to some PAL specification which is a straight jacked that the camera will never conform to and really start to exploit the high definition capabilities of your new camcorder. And stop listening to those JVC reps in Europe who only tell you what you want to hear and who only want to hold you back.

June 24th, 2005, 03:17 AM	#6
Hugo Pinto Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lisbon, Portugal Posts: 92	Ok, I'm amazed. It seems that the transport stream coming out of the camera is 1024x576, which can easily upscale to HD. So I definitely take back my "chopped-down" comment (and feel a whole lot better for it). Unfortunately, I have another problem: I'm using MPEG Streamclip to demux the transport stream to an .m2v. However, the only format Streamclip does not propose to scale the video is 720x576, so I assume that that's the format Streamclip is recognizing the .m2t. Do you guys use any other demuxing tool that may take advantage of the full stream? Am I doing anything wrong? Thanks in advance, Hugo Pinto

November 20th, 2005, 07:34 AM	#9
Robin Hemerik Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 36	Hi, another question about the PAL GR-PD1. A few months ago, I was able to use it for one day. I tried the 30p mode, but although the image looked great for SD, it had an intense motion flicker. Not smooth at all. It was very hard to shoot some decent footage with nice smooth motion, even when we set the camera on a tripod. It reminded me of a 15fps internet-webcam. I have little experience with progressive camera's, but could the motion flicker be a result of the fact that PAL is 50i, while the camera seems to capture 30p. I know 25p is suitable for PAL, and 30p is better for NTSC. edit Just found out that the PAL version actually is 25p. Probably it is just my lack of skills then ;)

November 23rd, 2005, 09:49 PM	#11
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Hugo, We got off topic; why don't you re-post the editing question on our HDV editing board: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=63 heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

November 24th, 2005, 02:28 AM	#12
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I would say his best source of reply would be in this forum. A cross post never hurts especially if it is invited, but very few of the general HDV users have more than a brief rememberance of these cams. Especially the PD1! __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

November 24th, 2005, 08:56 AM	#13
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	His first question was related to editing, hence the link. But I think we should keep the majority of this here, because of the discussion. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

November 26th, 2005, 02:31 PM	#14
Wolfgang Schmid Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vienna/Austria Posts: 152	Yes, I have also seen that the PD1 has PAL-SD, so 720x576. And yes, there have been consequent rumors that the material is downpatched 720p material. More important, the material can be blown up to 720 25p in a nice way. I tend to do that, by capturing the material with the JVC capture tool, and then I convert it to a 720 25p intermediate (either Cineform oder also Canopus HQ). Works fine so far. __________________ Kind regards, Wolfgang http://videotreffpunkt.com http://www.vegasvideo.de/forum

November 29th, 2005, 05:12 PM	#15
Troy Haines New Boot Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 14	I had the same problem with my PD1 but I use a pc not a mac.At the time after much searching no NLE's are aware of the PD1 25P mode. Sony Vegas 6c is the only software I'm aware of that has resolved the problem.