Color, etc., with the GR-HD1

[Murad Toor]

Woops.. I guess I'm really looking forward to the GY-HD7000. :)

[Steve Watnet]

Ha ha.

<<<-- Originally posted by Murad Toor : The JVC HD100's version of HD is almost identical to the Sony FX1/Z1...and both are very distinct from Panasonic's DVCProHD.

I think the training aspect isn't necessarily to do with the cameras but with the post production workflows. Today's FX1/Z1 editor can be completely comfortable working with HD100 editing. -->>>

I appreciate the tenor of this--I can see how one would say that post-production workflows are where the learning curves exist, but I am talking about something that is quite possibly altogether different; I am really talking about cinematography, but I am speaking quite naively.

I am talking about photography: this all started when I saw that photo at the beginning of this thread. Soon after, I saw a couple episodes of Project Greenlight on Bravo. In both of these instances, the color palette & tonality reminded me of a Gauguin painting.

I was jumping up and down. It was like the _HD chipset_ was translating the world into Gauguin colors. This was one of the more remarkable things I'd seen, on a color level. For reference, here is a link to represent the color palette I'm talking about

http://www.abcgallery.com/G/gauguin/gauguin.html

Since then, I've seen HD stuff that doesn't always automatically fall squarely into that color palette. So what I'm talking about is what previous posters were referencing when describing the learning curve associated with lighting and so on. I know a lot of this relates to production design and so on. But I am really talking about the photographic nuances, subtleties and idiosyncrasies to be avoided and exploited.

That said, I'm quite interested in this premise that Sony and JVC are doing HDV similarly. Is that an assertion made from a subjective photographic/aesthetics point of view?

Or is that a technical assertion made because they conform to the same standard, and if so, what does conforming to the standard really entail and how vigorous is it?

[Tom Roper]

I'd *love* see the reaction of that guy who tried so hard to sell Ben away from the HD10 when he sees "ON OUR WAY UP" in high definition.

That's why Ben is making movies, and the camera salesman has an hourly job.

All the credit goes to Ben. The HD10 gave him enough of the right stuff. He channeled the weakness and strengths of the camera together into a purposeful theme.

[Steve Watnet]

okok we'll download the movie>>>

-what's the url?

[Steve Watnet]

here's a good review of some HD10 probs:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=3050

it sez black turns to green in direct sunlight, and colors get nicely saturated on a n overcast day

[Ben Buie]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Watnet :
PS,

I think Ben should put his film on BitTorrent. -->>>

We could do a paid-download system using BitTorrent, we are looking into that option right now. Maybe $5 to download the HD version? We aren't ever going to do a free download, Anthony wouldn't be thrilled with that (the guy has $8k in production costs and $10k in manufacturing and marketing costs to recoup).

$10 for the WMV-HD DVD version (w/ free shipping) is about the best I can do for physical product.

We are working on a better trailer (that is more indicative of the actual content and not just random shots) as well as a short WMV HD trailer. I also need to get a Quicktime version of the trailer done, but one thing at a time.

The movie is on FilmBaby now, so that is cool. Hopefully Amazon in a couple of weeks. It is also in some small mom and pop convenience and movie stores in Atlanta.

Ben

[Ben Buie]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Watnet : here's a good review of some HD10 probs:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?showtopic=3050

it sez black turns to green in direct sunlight, and colors get nicely saturated on a n overcast day -->>>

Heh, I know that guy :) Seriously, that's Ed, the guy who shot and directed "On Our Way Up" and who is my partner in HighlyDef Productions, LLC.

Tom probably has more to add regarding the black to green shift, we still haven't nailed down the cause of that. The weird thing is that it isn't consistent.

Ben

[Ben Buie]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Watnet : okok we'll download the movie>>>

-what's the url? -->>>

Are you talking about "On Our Way Up"? The URL's in my sig. The movie isn't available for download yet though. See previous post.

Ben

[Ben Buie]

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Roper : Guys, I just got through watching Ben Buie's Docudrama, "ON OUR WAY UP" in Hi-Definition WMV-HD. Wow! I'll have more to say about it later, but if you're HD-ready and bought a dvx because it had more controls without seeing HD1/10 output done right, you'll be sick with envy later. -->>>

Wow, thanks Tom!

I just saw this post today.

Thanks again!

Ben

[Tom Roper]

In a few scenes of "ON OUR WAY UP," you could notice a slight green tint in dark areas. It looks like a consequence of reducing exposure by more than (3) f-stops with ND filters, in order to force a 1/60th second shutter speed for fluid motion. On that judgment, I would credit Ben as being faithful to the concept, because this 30 fps progressive video is *very* film like and fluid.

"ON OUR WAY UP" is not only an inspirational docudrama, but it's a model for what can be done without a big budget when people believe in themselves, commit to overcoming the obstacles, and reject those who say it can't be done.

This project didn't need the HD10 to be worthy. To the contrary Ben's work proved the credibility of the HD10 concept in professional work. To address the many HD10 detractors, I would ask what accomplishments have YOU? There's a lot of stuff shot with much better and more expensive cameras that goes nowhere. But this docudrama is for the record. It is what it is, and it can only be judged upon the whole of it.

It's possible to parse flaws, but not without acknowledging some absolutely stunning high-def scenes that leave the very best SD cameras looking like VHS. The close-up of the beautiful girl playing the record company executive has jaw dropping detail, as do the gorgeous twilight scenes of Atlanta skyscrapers. Not lost is the continuity of theme, which combines slow motion, sepia tones, shades and contrast.

Ben's camera operator Ed Hill?...showed great skill in composition.

Comparing Ben's use of the HD10 to the HD1 that I am familiar with, is hard to know when I would be comparing the cameras or when I would be comparing post work. As an overall theme goes, I would say the HD10 is quite a bit more film like, smoother textures, not as harsh or video-ish as the HD1. That said, I love the footage I get from the HD1, and I feel close to mastering the nuances of exposure, and getting the best image quality. But that's a trivial thing, pales in comparison to the awesome responsibility of making a production work beginning to end.

Criticism? Yes! No mindless cursing, and it's devoid of nudity and gratuitous sex. Deadwood this is not! ;)

My question to Ben is what's next and how are you going to top this? :)

[Ben Buie]

Wow, thanks again Tom! It is great to get 3rd party feedback like this, it really makes it all worthwhile.

FYI, Ed should get a lot of this credit, he not only shot but directed OOWU. I'm just the lowly producer :)

We've never used the HD1, so I can't say how much of it is difference in cameras and how much is editing. To my knowledge the only technical difference is the EE (edge enhancement) on the HD1.

<--Criticism? Yes! No mindless cursing, and it's devoid of nudity and gratuitous sex. Deadwood this is not! ;)

My question to Ben is what's next and how are you going to top this? :)-->

Heh, well there are a decent amount of f-bombs, we didn't waste our time trying to keep them from cursing. Unfortunately we couldn't get nudity or gratuitous sex in there :)

My dream is to develop (or find) an amazing screenplay and package it with my hero (as far as Director's go), Michael Mann. I'd love to produce the first true "non-effects" HD blockbuster (i.e., not Starwars, Spykids, Sin City, but a real-world based film). Hey, Mann messed around with HD in Collateral, so I figured he would be game. "Dream" is the operative word here :)

[Ben Buie]

As far as Bittorrent goes, we are trying to work out a deal with Prodigem (http://www.prodigem.com) and get the HD version of OOWU on the Prodigem Marketplace.

They will host the Bittorrent for us and handle the billing, passwords, etc.

Again, we are shooting for $5 to download the WMV HD version.

[Ben Buie]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Watnet :

PS,

I think Ben should put his film on BitTorrent. -->>>

Ask and you shall receive:

http://www.prodigem.com/torrents/torrent_454.html

Ben

[Murad Toor]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Watnet : I'm quite interested in this premise that Sony and JVC are doing HDV similarly. Is that an assertion made from a subjective photographic/aesthetics point of view?

Or is that a technical assertion made because they conform to the same standard, and if so, what does conforming to the standard really entail and how vigorous is it? -->>>

I meant what I'd said from a technical angle. I don't know how vigorous the standard is but all the different HDV flavors seem to work similarly workflow wise. What you wrote about a Gaugin color palette is pretty interesting. I shot some stuff that turned out somewhat like that (somewhat muted and earth-tone) but I was able to improve it through color correction.

On the aesthetics angle, I think a skilled operator could coax whatever look he/she is after with any given tool, but I guess your question was more about whether this particular tool (the JVC HD1) is more conducive to achieving a certain look.

[Ken Hodson]

Sony is focused for the moment on interlaced video. While JVC is set on progressive. From an aesthetics point of view I guess JVC would lean to the artistic side will Sony to the trades side. We are only talking leaning here, as both can be sculpted into what you like.
But for my two cents, I have never seen a cam that comes close to a film look straight off the tape as the HD10.