Experience with Standard Definition? at DVinfo.net

Gabriele Sartori · February 7th, 2005, 11:34 PM

On the JVC web site they say that SD60P 16x9 although not High Definition has a much better resolution than DV mode. Is this true? Beside the different screen format isn't the resolution the same. Understand that DV is interlaced and on playback some vertical filtering may be in place but is this making a big difference? I'd like to know from people that use the HD1/HD10 in SD. Any advantage vs HD mode (beside 60 vs 30) ?

Thanks
Gabriele

Barry Green · February 8th, 2005, 12:52 AM

Well, it's 60p versus 60i... it's twice as many pixels per second. What more do you need to know? The dimensions of the frame are the same, yes, but in the 60p mode you're getting 60 full-resolution frames, vs. DV mode which is delivering 60 half-resolution fields. So you're getting twice as much data.

Gabriele Sartori · February 9th, 2005, 08:28 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Well, it's 60p versus 60i... it's twice as many pixels per second. What more do you need to know? . -->>>
I know I get twice as much data rate (and data, once uncompressed ) is it really making a big difference in terms of visual quality though? Resolution doesn't change since yes, it is interlaced and I receive 2 half-frames but it should be equivalent to 30P hence more frames but same resolution. Understand that playing back 60i will have some amount of vertical filtering but is the visual quality very different? I guess I'll try myself but I was curios to hear from someone using this mode regularly.

Tom Roper · February 9th, 2005, 12:13 PM

It's *far* better than DV, but depending on your playback method and monitor, you may or may not see it.

480p60 is not a supported NTSC mode. So if you author it to DVD, it's being transcoded to either 480i60 or 480p30. If your playback monitor doesn't support 480p60 (which is an ATSC mode), the same thing. Either way, you'll see no benefit, or even discernable difference from 480p30.

If you hook the camera up directly to an ATSC capable monitor supporting 480p60, upon tape playback you'll see a huge difference.

Or if you convert the video to WMV9 at 480p60, you can play it back properly.

But again...if you burn it to NTSC compatible DVD video, it's going to look exactly like DV video, and the 60fps/progressive advantage is forsaken.

Tom Roper · February 9th, 2005, 12:15 PM

To restate, it's as difficult to share as the other ATSC mode-types, 720p30/720p60/1080i. It takes compatible equipment. Just because it's called "SD" doesn't mean it's a supported NTSC mode for playback from a conventional DVD disk. It's not.

Tom Roper · February 9th, 2005, 12:21 PM

On another level, speaking strictly to the subject of resolution, then video shot with a tripod of non-moving subjects, i.e. museum paintings will reveal no perceived advantage to SD mode. SD's not the appropriate mode for that kind of shooting. SD is best to impart a "live" quality, where the subjects are in motion.

Gabriele Sartori · February 9th, 2005, 05:29 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Roper : It's *far* better than DV -->>>

Thank you for your 3 posts, it was very interesting all what you wrote. I will experiment it for sure. The dilemma here is that this mode can be good enough for many applications with the better motion fluidity over HD. The hard thing though is to shoot in SD 60p when you have an HD capable camera in your hands, it takes discipline to pick the right mode instead of "bigger is better".

Personally I've two D-VHS VCR as well. Although I do DVDs with good results, I like to watch my stuff in HD and in order to do so I go on tape. The same tape can be used also for 60P.

Thanks a lot!
Gabriele

Tom Roper · February 9th, 2005, 10:44 PM

I forgot about D-VHS...that should be perfect!

SD recording mode is somewhat tantalizing. It gives a clue about how great 720p60 would be on this camera, if it were do-able.

Some people are knocked out by how good the SD 480p60 16x9 mode looks, particularly if the circumstances are right. When you get close enough to people, the slight loss of resolution compared to 720p30 is not so noticeable when people and faces fill more of the frame. The SD mode imparts a very live quality, I guess you said it better...fluidity.

SD mode takes away the "filmic" look that 720p30 imparts, and replaces it with a "video" look, that if you use it closer up, it could pass for hi-def.

Ken Hodson · February 25th, 2005, 03:54 PM

JVC states the pixel resolutions as follows.

840,000 pixels in HD mode

460,000 in SD mode

340,000 in DV mode

As well in the SD mode the cam is doing a downsample from 950x480 (true widescreen) to 720x480. The SD mode is quite nice. Its downsampling and increased pixel resolution give a very nice image. No aliasing or moire patterns that are all too comon from DV mode cams. Coupled with 60progressive frames per second and better light sensitivity than the HD mode, we have one very under rated shooting mode. I encourage any one to shoot any high motion action or shot that will be used as slow-mo to use the SD60p mode.

February 7th, 2005, 11:34 PM	#1
Gabriele Sartori Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 112	Experience with Standard Definition? On the JVC web site they say that SD60P 16x9 although not High Definition has a much better resolution than DV mode. Is this true? Beside the different screen format isn't the resolution the same. Understand that DV is interlaced and on playback some vertical filtering may be in place but is this making a big difference? I'd like to know from people that use the HD1/HD10 in SD. Any advantage vs HD mode (beside 60 vs 30) ? Thanks Gabriele

February 9th, 2005, 05:29 PM	#7
Gabriele Sartori Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 112	Thanks Tom <<<-- Originally posted by Tom Roper : It's far better than DV -->>> Thank you for your 3 posts, it was very interesting all what you wrote. I will experiment it for sure. The dilemma here is that this mode can be good enough for many applications with the better motion fluidity over HD. The hard thing though is to shoot in SD 60p when you have an HD capable camera in your hands, it takes discipline to pick the right mode instead of "bigger is better". Personally I've two D-VHS VCR as well. Although I do DVDs with good results, I like to watch my stuff in HD and in order to do so I go on tape. The same tape can be used also for 60P. Thanks a lot! Gabriele

February 25th, 2005, 03:54 PM	#9
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	JVC states the pixel resolutions as follows. 840,000 pixels in HD mode 460,000 in SD mode 340,000 in DV mode As well in the SD mode the cam is doing a downsample from 950x480 (true widescreen) to 720x480. The SD mode is quite nice. Its downsampling and increased pixel resolution give a very nice image. No aliasing or moire patterns that are all too comon from DV mode cams. Coupled with 60progressive frames per second and better light sensitivity than the HD mode, we have one very under rated shooting mode. I encourage any one to shoot any high motion action or shot that will be used as slow-mo to use the SD60p mode. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

February 8th, 2005, 12:52 AM	#2
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Well, it's 60p versus 60i... it's twice as many pixels per second. What more do you need to know? The dimensions of the frame are the same, yes, but in the 60p mode you're getting 60 full-resolution frames, vs. DV mode which is delivering 60 half-resolution fields. So you're getting twice as much data.

February 9th, 2005, 08:28 AM	#3
Gabriele Sartori Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 112	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Well, it's 60p versus 60i... it's twice as many pixels per second. What more do you need to know? . -->>> I know I get twice as much data rate (and data, once uncompressed ) is it really making a big difference in terms of visual quality though? Resolution doesn't change since yes, it is interlaced and I receive 2 half-frames but it should be equivalent to 30P hence more frames but same resolution. Understand that playing back 60i will have some amount of vertical filtering but is the visual quality very different? I guess I'll try myself but I was curios to hear from someone using this mode regularly.

February 9th, 2005, 12:13 PM	#4
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	It's far better than DV, but depending on your playback method and monitor, you may or may not see it. 480p60 is not a supported NTSC mode. So if you author it to DVD, it's being transcoded to either 480i60 or 480p30. If your playback monitor doesn't support 480p60 (which is an ATSC mode), the same thing. Either way, you'll see no benefit, or even discernable difference from 480p30. If you hook the camera up directly to an ATSC capable monitor supporting 480p60, upon tape playback you'll see a huge difference. Or if you convert the video to WMV9 at 480p60, you can play it back properly. But again...if you burn it to NTSC compatible DVD video, it's going to look exactly like DV video, and the 60fps/progressive advantage is forsaken.

February 9th, 2005, 12:15 PM	#5
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	To restate, it's as difficult to share as the other ATSC mode-types, 720p30/720p60/1080i. It takes compatible equipment. Just because it's called "SD" doesn't mean it's a supported NTSC mode for playback from a conventional DVD disk. It's not.

February 9th, 2005, 12:21 PM	#6
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	On another level, speaking strictly to the subject of resolution, then video shot with a tripod of non-moving subjects, i.e. museum paintings will reveal no perceived advantage to SD mode. SD's not the appropriate mode for that kind of shooting. SD is best to impart a "live" quality, where the subjects are in motion.

February 9th, 2005, 10:44 PM	#8
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I forgot about D-VHS...that should be perfect! SD recording mode is somewhat tantalizing. It gives a clue about how great 720p60 would be on this camera, if it were do-able. Some people are knocked out by how good the SD 480p60 16x9 mode looks, particularly if the circumstances are right. When you get close enough to people, the slight loss of resolution compared to 720p30 is not so noticeable when people and faces fill more of the frame. The SD mode imparts a very live quality, I guess you said it better...fluidity. SD mode takes away the "filmic" look that 720p30 imparts, and replaces it with a "video" look, that if you use it closer up, it could pass for hi-def.