I think I found how how to lock manual

Gabriele Sartori · March 15th, 2005, 09:19 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : In a way I can't figure out why JVC hasn't offered a firmware update for this issue. With the HD100 on its way -->>>

May be that is the reason, with a full manual capability the HD10 would be "too dangerous" for the rest of the future product line..

Tom Roper · March 15th, 2005, 10:46 AM

...but really and truly, just setting the camera to shutter priority 1/60th with ND works fine for many lighting situations, and assures you of perfect exposure wherever your subject is.

Gabriele Sartori · March 15th, 2005, 10:52 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Tom Roper : ...but really and truly, just setting the camera to shutter priority 1/60th with ND works fine for many lighting situations, and assures you of perfect exposure wherever your subject is. -->>>

I agree 100%. I do most of my stuff setting the shutter at 1/60th and depending on the situation with or without ND. When I need to pan and there are different light sources that may trick the exposure, I find a spot where I naturally get 1/60th and then I lock the iris. It is not perfect world but honestly it works well enough and I'm too happy with the camera to change. I'm quite a gadget freak and I was ready to jump on the Sony but some of the features there (interlaced, up-scaling) turned me off. The multiple shots I saw with the Sony having a bit of cromathic aberration were the deal killer.

Gabri

Tom Roper · March 15th, 2005, 10:58 AM

The JVC zoom lens is very good glass, fast...totally absent of barrel distortion/pincushion, and has the same speed (f1.8) at maximum zoom that it does at wide angle. That's a hallmark of a great zoom lens.

Graham Hickling · March 15th, 2005, 03:54 PM

I'm totally sold on progressive. I dont see myself ever being tempted now by a 1080i camera, regardless of its other features.

As an aside - I find the JVC is great for copying old super-8 films. I have a rheostat on the projector so I can tweak its speed, then I just plunk the JVC in front of the screen, film it, resize it with a few filters and get a great-looking flicker-free DVD. I NEVER managed to get a flicker-free result when I tried the same thing with an interlaced DV camera.

Ken Hodson · March 15th, 2005, 09:41 PM

So were back to square one? Whats your opinion Gabriele, do we just need to get better at finding the right light level to get 1/60th befor we lock?
The program AE has some interesting options. I know that the "spotlight" gives an exposure -3. And sports 1/250. (why they couldn't make a "Usefull" and set it at 1/60!. Anyone know exactly what "snow" and "twilight" set to?

Ken Hodson · March 15th, 2005, 09:58 PM

http://videosystems.com/ar/video_jvc_jyhd/index.html

This article by Steve Mullen writen just when the cam cam out has some interesting details on the problems we are having. Scroll down half-way to JY-HD10 Performance.

Tom Roper · March 16th, 2005, 12:33 AM

Interesting that you mentioned snow, Ken. We still have some on the lawns and roof tops that hasn't melted, yet with clear streets making for some interesting contrasts, and some mixed findings on the HD1.

Yes, I did try the "SNOW" setting in the program menu, and on brief observation it looked like it maintained the same exposure, but increased shutter speed from 1/250th on Auto to 1/500 on snow, and opened the aperture by 1 f-stop. Before I read your post about spotlight dropping exposure by -3, I wanted to try that to see if I could get the shutter speed going the other way.

It's square one as far as I'm concerned, or maybe square 2 being optimistic.

My result shooting the snow was oh-so close, but another typical HD1 non-manual shooting problem.

I started with 4x (.6) ND, and a really good polarizer, white balance on "fine." I put the camera in shutter priority and set it to 1/60th. The attendant aperture worked out to about f16. The result was a very sharp, nicely saturated picture with one flaw...it was about an f-stop too dark overall. I had an idea, try the backlight button, but as HD1/10 history would have it, that doesn't work either in shutter priority.

With the camera warmed up, I was never able to lock 1/60 manual using Gabriele's trick. The one time I did, a check revealed it had switched itself to 1/30th. In any case, the camera needed to have its metering working and not lock the exposure because it's too easy to blow the highlights or lose shadow detail when panning from the street to a snow covered lawn.

But again, just like a SLR, the exposure metering gets tripped up by the snow, metering to the highlights and underexposing the shadows means you need a working backlight button, or you have to increase the exposure +1 or +2 on the dial, either of which affords no control of the shutter speed.

What I want to do some more tests on, is to see how much of the choppiness is really caused by the lack of motion blur with fast shutter speeds, and how much is possibly caused by the optical image stabilization, which seems sub-par.

There's something I don't like about panning at 1/60th, almost seems like the tops of trees or pointed shapes seem to "bend" for a lack of a better way to describe it.

The camera needs a tripod to cope with some of the shortcomings. I do use one, but point and shoot is sometimes the only way I'm going to get the shot, expecially for candids.

Tom Roper · March 16th, 2005, 12:37 AM

I should mention that while I continue to struggle with some outdoor situations, I think the camera is underrated for what it does indoors in ambient lighting. I had some incredibly good results with indoor industrial photography in factories, using the ambient lighting they have, flourescent, mecury vapor etc. For that, nothing seems required, just point and shoot in auto.

Ken Hodson · March 16th, 2005, 10:29 PM

"With the camera warmed up, I was never able to lock 1/60 manual using Gabriele's trick. The one time I did, a check revealed it had switched itself to 1/30th. "

I unfortunately have found the exact same thing. Now that I know the "quick" cycle through trick, I can check. My cam always seems to revert to 1/30th indoors. I try to spoof it by aiming directly at a light source. It will read out 1/30 f22. Argh!
If I raise the shutter it will go back. If I lower the f-stop the shutter will rise only to revert to 1/30 once exposure is locked.
Locking the shutter at 1/60 then using ND's seems to be the only way if auto exposure won't fit the situation. Otherwise it is lock the exposure and expect a 1/30 shutter.

Maybe JVC would be very interested in a petition thread(s) complaining about a lack of a very deserved firmware update the day the HD100 is announced?
We have very little leverage to get JVC off their butts. Some well deserved criticism that lets future JVC HDV customers know how little the company stands behind you after you buy, just might be that leverage.

Ken Hodson · March 18th, 2005, 03:16 AM

Any one have any insite with the 480p60 mode as far as shutter goes with that?
I am going to test it out tommorow. If it defaults to less than 1/60, that would just be sad.

Patrick Jenkins · March 18th, 2005, 08:09 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : Any one have any insite with the 480p60 mode as far as shutter goes with that? I am going to test it out tommorow. If it defaults to less than 1/60, that would just be sad. -->>>

It defaults to 1/60. I was trying it the otherday to test something, but ultimately my test didn't work.

Ken Hodson · March 18th, 2005, 01:08 PM

1/60 is what I have found as well. 1/30 HD , 1/60 SD.

March 15th, 2005, 10:46 AM	#62
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Not to sound like the doctor of doom... ...but really and truly, just setting the camera to shutter priority 1/60th with ND works fine for many lighting situations, and assures you of perfect exposure wherever your subject is.

March 15th, 2005, 10:52 AM	#63
Gabriele Sartori Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 112	Re: Not to sound like the doctor of doom... <<<-- Originally posted by Tom Roper : ...but really and truly, just setting the camera to shutter priority 1/60th with ND works fine for many lighting situations, and assures you of perfect exposure wherever your subject is. -->>> I agree 100%. I do most of my stuff setting the shutter at 1/60th and depending on the situation with or without ND. When I need to pan and there are different light sources that may trick the exposure, I find a spot where I naturally get 1/60th and then I lock the iris. It is not perfect world but honestly it works well enough and I'm too happy with the camera to change. I'm quite a gadget freak and I was ready to jump on the Sony but some of the features there (interlaced, up-scaling) turned me off. The multiple shots I saw with the Sony having a bit of cromathic aberration were the deal killer. Gabri

March 15th, 2005, 09:41 PM	#66
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	So were back to square one? Whats your opinion Gabriele, do we just need to get better at finding the right light level to get 1/60th befor we lock? The program AE has some interesting options. I know that the "spotlight" gives an exposure -3. And sports 1/250. (why they couldn't make a "Usefull" and set it at 1/60!. Anyone know exactly what "snow" and "twilight" set to? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 15th, 2005, 09:58 PM	#67
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	http://videosystems.com/ar/video_jvc_jyhd/index.html This article by Steve Mullen writen just when the cam cam out has some interesting details on the problems we are having. Scroll down half-way to JY-HD10 Performance. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 16th, 2005, 12:37 AM	#69
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	...and to be fair and balanced I should mention that while I continue to struggle with some outdoor situations, I think the camera is underrated for what it does indoors in ambient lighting. I had some incredibly good results with indoor industrial photography in factories, using the ambient lighting they have, flourescent, mecury vapor etc. For that, nothing seems required, just point and shoot in auto.

March 15th, 2005, 09:19 AM	#61
Gabriele Sartori Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco Bay Area, CA Posts: 112	<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : In a way I can't figure out why JVC hasn't offered a firmware update for this issue. With the HD100 on its way -->>> May be that is the reason, with a full manual capability the HD10 would be "too dangerous" for the rest of the future product line..

March 15th, 2005, 10:58 AM	#64
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	The JVC zoom lens is very good glass, fast...totally absent of barrel distortion/pincushion, and has the same speed (f1.8) at maximum zoom that it does at wide angle. That's a hallmark of a great zoom lens.

March 15th, 2005, 03:54 PM	#65
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	I'm totally sold on progressive. I dont see myself ever being tempted now by a 1080i camera, regardless of its other features. As an aside - I find the JVC is great for copying old super-8 films. I have a rheostat on the projector so I can tweak its speed, then I just plunk the JVC in front of the screen, film it, resize it with a few filters and get a great-looking flicker-free DVD. I NEVER managed to get a flicker-free result when I tried the same thing with an interlaced DV camera.

March 16th, 2005, 12:33 AM	#68
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Interesting that you mentioned snow, Ken. We still have some on the lawns and roof tops that hasn't melted, yet with clear streets making for some interesting contrasts, and some mixed findings on the HD1. Yes, I did try the "SNOW" setting in the program menu, and on brief observation it looked like it maintained the same exposure, but increased shutter speed from 1/250th on Auto to 1/500 on snow, and opened the aperture by 1 f-stop. Before I read your post about spotlight dropping exposure by -3, I wanted to try that to see if I could get the shutter speed going the other way. It's square one as far as I'm concerned, or maybe square 2 being optimistic. My result shooting the snow was oh-so close, but another typical HD1 non-manual shooting problem. I started with 4x (.6) ND, and a really good polarizer, white balance on "fine." I put the camera in shutter priority and set it to 1/60th. The attendant aperture worked out to about f16. The result was a very sharp, nicely saturated picture with one flaw...it was about an f-stop too dark overall. I had an idea, try the backlight button, but as HD1/10 history would have it, that doesn't work either in shutter priority. With the camera warmed up, I was never able to lock 1/60 manual using Gabriele's trick. The one time I did, a check revealed it had switched itself to 1/30th. In any case, the camera needed to have its metering working and not lock the exposure because it's too easy to blow the highlights or lose shadow detail when panning from the street to a snow covered lawn. But again, just like a SLR, the exposure metering gets tripped up by the snow, metering to the highlights and underexposing the shadows means you need a working backlight button, or you have to increase the exposure +1 or +2 on the dial, either of which affords no control of the shutter speed. What I want to do some more tests on, is to see how much of the choppiness is really caused by the lack of motion blur with fast shutter speeds, and how much is possibly caused by the optical image stabilization, which seems sub-par. There's something I don't like about panning at 1/60th, almost seems like the tops of trees or pointed shapes seem to "bend" for a lack of a better way to describe it. The camera needs a tripod to cope with some of the shortcomings. I do use one, but point and shoot is sometimes the only way I'm going to get the shot, expecially for candids.

March 16th, 2005, 10:29 PM	#70
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	"With the camera warmed up, I was never able to lock 1/60 manual using Gabriele's trick. The one time I did, a check revealed it had switched itself to 1/30th. " I unfortunately have found the exact same thing. Now that I know the "quick" cycle through trick, I can check. My cam always seems to revert to 1/30th indoors. I try to spoof it by aiming directly at a light source. It will read out 1/30 f22. Argh! If I raise the shutter it will go back. If I lower the f-stop the shutter will rise only to revert to 1/30 once exposure is locked. Locking the shutter at 1/60 then using ND's seems to be the only way if auto exposure won't fit the situation. Otherwise it is lock the exposure and expect a 1/30 shutter. Maybe JVC would be very interested in a petition thread(s) complaining about a lack of a very deserved firmware update the day the HD100 is announced? We have very little leverage to get JVC off their butts. Some well deserved criticism that lets future JVC HDV customers know how little the company stands behind you after you buy, just might be that leverage. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 18th, 2005, 03:16 AM	#71
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Any one have any insite with the 480p60 mode as far as shutter goes with that? I am going to test it out tommorow. If it defaults to less than 1/60, that would just be sad. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 18th, 2005, 08:09 AM	#72
Patrick Jenkins Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 382	<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : Any one have any insite with the 480p60 mode as far as shutter goes with that? I am going to test it out tommorow. If it defaults to less than 1/60, that would just be sad. -->>> It defaults to 1/60. I was trying it the otherday to test something, but ultimately my test didn't work.

March 18th, 2005, 01:08 PM	#73
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	1/60 is what I have found as well. 1/30 HD , 1/60 SD. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.