I think I found how how to lock manual

Tom Roper · March 10th, 2005, 01:04 AM

Exposure stays locked. And while locked, I can toggle the S/A button to see what the shutter speed and aperture settings are.

Houston, we HAVE manual control !

Graham Hickling · March 10th, 2005, 07:30 AM

Perhaps we should start a new thread, and post a clear step-by-step explanation at the top of it - just so newcomers don't have to wade through these 3 pages of posts?

Heck - maybe it even warrents a "sticky"???

Patrick Jenkins · March 10th, 2005, 10:26 AM

Good idea. I'm currently trying to figure out the SS display...

There are a lot of common terms being used to mean multiple things.

The trick comes down to cycling between the settings (shutter and F) while the indicator is still flashing - don't wait for it to stay steady, at that point the camera has readjusted and lost your previous setting. If you choose what you want, then cycle to the next setting, then cycle again all while the indicator is still blinking (about .5-1.0 seconds between each toggle), you've got locked manual control.

This camera is a lot like Blender (www.blender3d.org). Great potential and usability, horrible interface and documentation.

Patrick Jenkins · March 10th, 2005, 10:41 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : This good news guys. Thanks for pushing forward on this topic Gabriele, we seem to be making headway. I will be doing some more testing of my own this weekend using some software that allows variable zebra monitoring that will help detect any exposure flux. -->>>

Hey hey,, more info please :D

Tom Roper · March 12th, 2005, 02:51 PM

But I was wrong for confirming the manual lock. Unfortunately, it doesn't work.

Do this:

1.) Put the HD1/10 on a tripod indoors and point it toward a window in daylight.

2.) Let the camera stabilize for 1 minute. The significance of this will become apparent later.

3.) Toggle the S/A button to read the current shutter and aperture, for now assume it was 1/250 - f5.6.

4.) Manually set the shutter to 1/30 second, and then immediately lock the exposure.

5.) While watching the LCD screen, toggle the S/A button repeatedly.

*****************************************

While the exposure is locked, note how the scene in the LCD gradually fades to dark. At the same time, note how the readout for the shutter speed is gradually returning to 1/250.....first 1/30...then 1/60...1/100...1/125...1/250, as the picture gets darker.

Tom Roper · March 12th, 2005, 03:02 PM

What I observed, is that when the lighting in a scene changes, the aperture responds almost instantly, while the shutter responds much more slowly, taking perhaps 20 seconds or more (depending on the ambient light) to swing from 1/30 - 1/250 sec.

There are several ways to observe this tendency. Another way is to put the camera into aperture priority, and point it at the same window on the tripod, but with the lens cap on, or your hand in front. Remove the lens cap and looking at the LCD observe how slowly the shutter responds before the exposure is correct again.

Graham Hickling · March 12th, 2005, 03:17 PM

Tom, Are you sure you have the exposure locked with the "L" showing?

I can point the camera set at f2.8 1/60th at a bright window (where the "correct" exposure would be f16 1/250th) and cycle repeatedly with the S/A button (20 times or so, over a 2-minute period) and nothing budges!

Each time, the readout says 1/60 and f2.8, and the viewfinder stays heavily overexposed.

I'm cycling quite fast - I just glance at the number then move on immediately...

Tom Roper · March 12th, 2005, 03:35 PM

As you know, you cannot lock the exposure while you are in shutter or aperture priority mode, you have to exit first.

Whenever you exit shutter or aperture mode, before going into exposure lock it won't remain at the shutter/aperture setting you chose unless it wanted to be there in the first place, in auto.

Consider the following example. The camera is stabilized, and you toggle the S/A button and get this readout 1/125 - f5.6. When you lock the exposure, it will *stay locked* if it was stabilized there when you locked it. You can put the lens cap on, or point the camera at the sun, regardless...the exposure remains locked.

But if you were trying to spoof the camera to a 1/60 shutter speed using the Gabriele trick immediately before locking the exposure, followed by toggling of the S/A button for confirmation, you could be tricking yourself. Because while the shutter speed readout may appear to have locked at 1/60 sec the first time you looked, you wouldn't notice that it was continuing to revert because it was happening so slowly.

So over the course of 20 seconds if you repeat the confirmation check, you will confirm that the shutter did not remain locked and was changing...1/60...then 1/100...then 1/125 and so on.

To summarize, ONLY if the camera was stabilized in AUTO (and not making the slow climb up the curve while exiting from shutter priority mode), will the exposure remain locked.

Tom Roper · March 12th, 2005, 03:41 PM

Graham, you ask two questions.

1.) Yes..."L" is showing.

2.) >>>I can point the camera set at f2.8 1/60th at a bright window (where the "correct" exposure would be f16 1/250th) and cycle repeatedly with the S/A button (20 times or so, over a 2-minute period) and nothing budges! <<<

Right! But that's because you had the camera locked at f2.8 1/60th *before* you pointed it at the window. Yes, it stays locked in that circumstance.

But reverse the order. Point it at the bright window *first* (on a tripod), and try getting it to lock at 1/60th.

Tom Roper · March 12th, 2005, 03:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling :Each time, the readout says 1/60 and f2.8, and the viewfinder stays heavily overexposed.
-->>>

But consider Graham, the object is not to be able to simply lock the incorrect exposure, it is to be able to lock the *shutter* to the correct exposure that won't change when you pan.

So in your example, you succeeding in locking the shutter and not having the exposure change when you panned, but you failed in that the window was overexposed. Do you see the difference?

So what you need to make happen, is to achieve a 1/60th shutter and correct exposure while pointed at the bright window (which is the scene), and then have it go underexposed when you pan away from the scene.

Tom Roper · March 12th, 2005, 03:52 PM

I'm glad you're trying. I hope we can work this out.

Graham Hickling · March 12th, 2005, 03:56 PM

OK - I see what you mean now, Tom.

>> To summarize, ONLY if the camera was stabilized in AUTO (and not making the slow climb up the curve while exiting from shutter priority mode), will the exposure remain locked.

I see this requirement as part of the method: the exposure has to be 'correct' - from the camera's perspective - at the moment it gets locked. That's kinda what I was getting at in an earlier post:

>>When you first lock the shutter, it has to be at a speed where the camera can achieve correct exposure with an available f-stop (i.e. somewhere between f1.8 and f22).

The way I work, I begin by pointing the camera at a part of the scene that suits an 'averaged' exposure. I then set 1/60th manually, lock the f-stop, and re-orient the camera to the angle that I actually want to film (which might be back-lit, in shadow, or whatever).

Tom Roper · March 12th, 2005, 04:18 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling :
>>When you first lock the shutter, it has to be at a speed where the camera can achieve correct exposure with an available f-stop (i.e. somewhere between f1.8 and f22).

The way I work, I begin by pointing the camera at a part of the scene that suits an 'averaged' exposure. I then set 1/60th manually, lock the f-stop, and re-orient the camera to the angle that I actually want to film (which might be back-lit, in shadow, or whatever). -->>>

But what if you don't want an averaged exposure?

Assume for example, I want to shoot a scene in bright daylight at 1/60th, and I have some ND so that my aperture is within the working latitude of the exposure, lets say f16. I want my scene perfectly exposed in the bright area where my subjects are, and when I pan into the shadows where my subjects aren't, I want it to go dark (underexposed) instead of trying to achieve some averaged exposure that falls halfway between the bright scene and the shadows?

In this instance, I'm not able to lock exposure onto the bright scene at 1/60th, unless I first lock the camera exposure onto a darker part of the scene where my subjects aren't, causing them to be overexposed in the brighter scene.

So while I understand what you are saying with your technique for exposing for the average scene, if the objective is for exposing for the bright scene, then not being able to lock the shutter and exposure for the bright part of the scene reveals the limitation.

Ken Hodson · March 12th, 2005, 04:37 PM

Could we not lock the shutter/exposure by aiming at the darker scene then aim at the brighter scene and use ND's or a variable ND to bring the exposure down?

Graham Hickling · March 12th, 2005, 04:41 PM

>>Assume for example, I want to shoot a scene in bright daylight at 1/60th, and I have some ND so that my aperture is within the working latitude of the exposure, lets say f16. I want my scene perfectly exposed in the bright area where my subjects are, and when I pan into the shadows where my subjects aren't, I want it to go dark

I would set the shutter to 1/60 and then adjust my angle/position so that brightly-lit parts of the scene filled most of the viewfinder (at which point the camera will set itself to f16 or thereabouts). Then I lock the exposure using Gabriele's method. Then I compose the actual shot I'm after.

(And if I need to confirm my settings, I can cycle the S/A button to be sure that the camera is still locked on 1/60, f16, regardless of whether I'm filming the bright or shadow part of my scene).

Certainly this is a fudge - but I find it a very workable way to get around exactly the killer problem that you used as your example - of the exposure opening up when I pan into a shadowed area.

>>In this instance, I'm not able to lock exposure onto the bright scene at 1/60th, unless I first lock the camera exposure onto a darker part of the scene

Sorry, but I didnt follow you on this bit...?

March 10th, 2005, 01:04 AM	#31
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I can confirm... Exposure stays locked. And while locked, I can toggle the S/A button to see what the shutter speed and aperture settings are. Houston, we HAVE manual control !

March 12th, 2005, 02:51 PM	#35
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I hate to shatter the euphoria... But I was wrong for confirming the manual lock. Unfortunately, it doesn't work. Do this: 1.) Put the HD1/10 on a tripod indoors and point it toward a window in daylight. 2.) Let the camera stabilize for 1 minute. The significance of this will become apparent later. 3.) Toggle the S/A button to read the current shutter and aperture, for now assume it was 1/250 - f5.6. 4.) Manually set the shutter to 1/30 second, and then immediately lock the exposure. 5.) While watching the LCD screen, toggle the S/A button repeatedly. ***************************************** While the exposure is locked, note how the scene in the LCD gradually fades to dark. At the same time, note how the readout for the shutter speed is gradually returning to 1/250.....first 1/30...then 1/60...1/100...1/125...1/250, as the picture gets darker.

March 12th, 2005, 04:37 PM	#44
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Could we not lock the shutter/exposure by aiming at the darker scene then aim at the brighter scene and use ND's or a variable ND to bring the exposure down? __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

March 10th, 2005, 07:30 AM	#32
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Perhaps we should start a new thread, and post a clear step-by-step explanation at the top of it - just so newcomers don't have to wade through these 3 pages of posts? Heck - maybe it even warrents a "sticky"???

March 10th, 2005, 10:26 AM	#33
Patrick Jenkins Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 382	Good idea. I'm currently trying to figure out the SS display... There are a lot of common terms being used to mean multiple things. The trick comes down to cycling between the settings (shutter and F) while the indicator is still flashing - don't wait for it to stay steady, at that point the camera has readjusted and lost your previous setting. If you choose what you want, then cycle to the next setting, then cycle again all while the indicator is still blinking (about .5-1.0 seconds between each toggle), you've got locked manual control. This camera is a lot like Blender (www.blender3d.org). Great potential and usability, horrible interface and documentation.

March 10th, 2005, 10:41 AM	#34
Patrick Jenkins Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 382	<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : This good news guys. Thanks for pushing forward on this topic Gabriele, we seem to be making headway. I will be doing some more testing of my own this weekend using some software that allows variable zebra monitoring that will help detect any exposure flux. -->>> Hey hey,, more info please :D

March 12th, 2005, 03:02 PM	#36
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	What I observed, is that when the lighting in a scene changes, the aperture responds almost instantly, while the shutter responds much more slowly, taking perhaps 20 seconds or more (depending on the ambient light) to swing from 1/30 - 1/250 sec. There are several ways to observe this tendency. Another way is to put the camera into aperture priority, and point it at the same window on the tripod, but with the lens cap on, or your hand in front. Remove the lens cap and looking at the LCD observe how slowly the shutter responds before the exposure is correct again.

March 12th, 2005, 03:17 PM	#37
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	Tom, Are you sure you have the exposure locked with the "L" showing? I can point the camera set at f2.8 1/60th at a bright window (where the "correct" exposure would be f16 1/250th) and cycle repeatedly with the S/A button (20 times or so, over a 2-minute period) and nothing budges! Each time, the readout says 1/60 and f2.8, and the viewfinder stays heavily overexposed. I'm cycling quite fast - I just glance at the number then move on immediately...

March 12th, 2005, 03:35 PM	#38
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	As you know, you cannot lock the exposure while you are in shutter or aperture priority mode, you have to exit first. Whenever you exit shutter or aperture mode, before going into exposure lock it won't remain at the shutter/aperture setting you chose unless it wanted to be there in the first place, in auto. Consider the following example. The camera is stabilized, and you toggle the S/A button and get this readout 1/125 - f5.6. When you lock the exposure, it will stay locked if it was stabilized there when you locked it. You can put the lens cap on, or point the camera at the sun, regardless...the exposure remains locked. But if you were trying to spoof the camera to a 1/60 shutter speed using the Gabriele trick immediately before locking the exposure, followed by toggling of the S/A button for confirmation, you could be tricking yourself. Because while the shutter speed readout may appear to have locked at 1/60 sec the first time you looked, you wouldn't notice that it was continuing to revert because it was happening so slowly. So over the course of 20 seconds if you repeat the confirmation check, you will confirm that the shutter did not remain locked and was changing...1/60...then 1/100...then 1/125 and so on. To summarize, ONLY if the camera was stabilized in AUTO (and not making the slow climb up the curve while exiting from shutter priority mode), will the exposure remain locked.

March 12th, 2005, 03:41 PM	#39
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Graham, you ask two questions. 1.) Yes..."L" is showing. 2.) >>>I can point the camera set at f2.8 1/60th at a bright window (where the "correct" exposure would be f16 1/250th) and cycle repeatedly with the S/A button (20 times or so, over a 2-minute period) and nothing budges! <<< Right! But that's because you had the camera locked at f2.8 1/60th before you pointed it at the window. Yes, it stays locked in that circumstance. But reverse the order. Point it at the bright window first (on a tripod), and try getting it to lock at 1/60th.

March 12th, 2005, 03:50 PM	#40
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling :Each time, the readout says 1/60 and f2.8, and the viewfinder stays heavily overexposed. -->>> But consider Graham, the object is not to be able to simply lock the incorrect exposure, it is to be able to lock the shutter to the correct exposure that won't change when you pan. So in your example, you succeeding in locking the shutter and not having the exposure change when you panned, but you failed in that the window was overexposed. Do you see the difference? So what you need to make happen, is to achieve a 1/60th shutter and correct exposure while pointed at the bright window (which is the scene), and then have it go underexposed when you pan away from the scene.

March 12th, 2005, 03:52 PM	#41
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	I'm glad you're trying. I hope we can work this out.

March 12th, 2005, 03:56 PM	#42
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	OK - I see what you mean now, Tom. >> To summarize, ONLY if the camera was stabilized in AUTO (and not making the slow climb up the curve while exiting from shutter priority mode), will the exposure remain locked. I see this requirement as part of the method: the exposure has to be 'correct' - from the camera's perspective - at the moment it gets locked. That's kinda what I was getting at in an earlier post: >>When you first lock the shutter, it has to be at a speed where the camera can achieve correct exposure with an available f-stop (i.e. somewhere between f1.8 and f22). The way I work, I begin by pointing the camera at a part of the scene that suits an 'averaged' exposure. I then set 1/60th manually, lock the f-stop, and re-orient the camera to the angle that I actually want to film (which might be back-lit, in shadow, or whatever).

March 12th, 2005, 04:18 PM	#43
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	<<<-- Originally posted by Graham Hickling : >>When you first lock the shutter, it has to be at a speed where the camera can achieve correct exposure with an available f-stop (i.e. somewhere between f1.8 and f22). The way I work, I begin by pointing the camera at a part of the scene that suits an 'averaged' exposure. I then set 1/60th manually, lock the f-stop, and re-orient the camera to the angle that I actually want to film (which might be back-lit, in shadow, or whatever). -->>> But what if you don't want an averaged exposure? Assume for example, I want to shoot a scene in bright daylight at 1/60th, and I have some ND so that my aperture is within the working latitude of the exposure, lets say f16. I want my scene perfectly exposed in the bright area where my subjects are, and when I pan into the shadows where my subjects aren't, I want it to go dark (underexposed) instead of trying to achieve some averaged exposure that falls halfway between the bright scene and the shadows? In this instance, I'm not able to lock exposure onto the bright scene at 1/60th, unless I first lock the camera exposure onto a darker part of the scene where my subjects aren't, causing them to be overexposed in the brighter scene. So while I understand what you are saying with your technique for exposing for the average scene, if the objective is for exposing for the bright scene, then not being able to lock the shutter and exposure for the bright part of the scene reveals the limitation.

March 12th, 2005, 04:41 PM	#45
Graham Hickling Trustee Join Date: May 2004 Location: Knoxville, Tennessee Posts: 1,669	>>Assume for example, I want to shoot a scene in bright daylight at 1/60th, and I have some ND so that my aperture is within the working latitude of the exposure, lets say f16. I want my scene perfectly exposed in the bright area where my subjects are, and when I pan into the shadows where my subjects aren't, I want it to go dark I would set the shutter to 1/60 and then adjust my angle/position so that brightly-lit parts of the scene filled most of the viewfinder (at which point the camera will set itself to f16 or thereabouts). Then I lock the exposure using Gabriele's method. Then I compose the actual shot I'm after. (And if I need to confirm my settings, I can cycle the S/A button to be sure that the camera is still locked on 1/60, f16, regardless of whether I'm filming the bright or shadow part of my scene). Certainly this is a fudge - but I find it a very workable way to get around exactly the killer problem that you used as your example - of the exposure opening up when I pan into a shadowed area. >>In this instance, I'm not able to lock exposure onto the bright scene at 1/60th, unless I first lock the camera exposure onto a darker part of the scene Sorry, but I didnt follow you on this bit...?