HD10 to 35mm/please help & suggestions

[Bob James]

I have heard various discussions saying it's impossible to put it on 35mm film because it shoots in 30p form.

Like stated here http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm (Scroll to the bottom)

So to end all discussions is that true? There is no way to transfer it to film for festival viewing? Or is there a way but it just looks like crap?

If the JVC cannot be transferred to film (thus no festival viewings), it would be pointless to get it for me.

I will then get the Panasonic AG-DVX100a because of the 24p can be transferred more easilly.

I prefer the look of the JVC and prefer it to the Panasonic. But in the end I need something that can be transferred to film or hdcam or some other format that is accepted in film fests.

So if anyone can shed some light on the whole JVC HD to 35mm thing, please do. If it is possible to do a transfer please tell me how, and where it can be done.

Thanks.

[Giroud Francois]

anything is transferrable to film, just depends what you are expecting.
35mm is far superior to any video signal, so even HD to film will not match real 35mm.
from the pure quality point of view, a 3CCD 24p will give better results than a HD monochip pulled down from 30p to 24p.

[Barry Green]

Oh, you could certainly transfer it to film, but it will look horrible. What you cannot do is successfully transfer it to film and have it look good.

(Or, tongue-in-cheek, you could transfer it frame-by-frame and it would look spectacular, but run 20% too slow. If you had everyone in your film act too fast and talk too fast, and then in post you slowed it down 20% (so it's running frame-accurate but 24fps) then you could probably get a great film transfer from it.)

Kind of a moot point though, as most festivals don't *require* a film print anymore. You can get in almost any festival in the world with a videotape. Might require a transfer up to HDCAM or over to BetaSP, but that's no big deal.

[Bob James]

I figured it'd look horrible.

Most festivals takes VHS and DVD for entry. But if you get accepted you got to go to something else.

So the JVC can go to HDcam? If so can you give me a link to a transfer place (preferably canada). And the cost to go to HDCam?

And can the JVC go to HDCam and look good... that's the more important question.

[Giroud Francois]

actually the HD10 (as the name indicates) is a HD camera. if you select the HD feature on the switch.
it is not real HD (d5 : 1920x1080) but d4 (1280x720p).
it still a lot better than D1 at 720x480
please note that any HD feature implies wide screen 16/9 format.
this could be a problem when screen are set up for 4/3 projection.
despite higher resolution you movie could be projected at smaller size (4/3 with top and bottom black bars) than real 4/3 movies.

[Mark Jervis]

I just have to hop in here and correct what was just stated that this this camera is not true HD. It is true HD, 1280x720 is still an HD standard. Sorry, just had to fix that.

[Les Dit]

Bob,
Why don't you judge for yourself. A lot of super picky film tech geeks will poo poo the idea, but I think that the 30 converted by simple frame blending looks decent. A long time ago, when I first got the camera, I shot some skate board park footage hand held. This is worst case high motion stuff, with hands flailing all over the place, and the BG moving because of the camera motion.

Take a look at the HD10 converted 24 fps 9 meg 5mbps media 9 file I put here:

http://s95439504.onlinehome.us/skater-at-24.wmv

Tell me your opinion of the artifacts from converting 30fps to 24. In motion, like a real audience would see it. Not paused, movies don't pause. I'm curious what you think. Please don't comment on the crappy hand held camera work, I was just testing the camera out !

Just ask yourself the question: Would a 'regular' group of people see anything bothersome?
Remember, you will never see horrid interlace sawing edges, it's progressive to progressive.

-Les

[Giroud Francois]

you are right, D4 is HD, but no professional will accept to talk HD if it is not D5

[Bob James]

Les Dit: I love the look of the JVC that's why I want to use it. The quality of your skater video was awesome. Did you use that DVFilmMaker program to convert to 24?

--------------

The bottom line is I need a camera that will be able to transfer to a theatrical film festival viewing format (35 or HDCAM).

I have no idea how to transfer to HDCAM or where I can go to do that, or if it's even affordable.

So If someone can let me know how to convert a finished feature using the JVC to HDCam (in Canada). That would solve all my problems.

I would love to skip the 35 mm thing and go to HDCam. I just assumed HDcam was hard to convert to...


Anyone with info on transferring your finished JVC shot movie on the Hdcam (and make it look good). Please tell me the steps and transfer places in Canada that can make this happen.

Thanks.

[Giroud Francois]

I do not really understand what you call HDcam.
Either you chose the digital way and make your shot with DV (hd or not) , edit it, and save on digital format (DV for standard video or D-VHS for HD video) or even upgraded to Betacam format.
Or you choose the tape to film way, that could be 16mm or 35mm.
for video, the 16mm should be a lot cheaper and give good result.
You need to know if the target audience is able to provide the equipment to project your media.
16 or 35mm is easy as most of theater have some projector but film festival are sometime limited to video only.
HD video is too new to expect to find D-VHS reader and HD capable video projector easily.

[Bob James]

Hdcam is a format by Sony. That most film festivals (sundance, telluride, etc) accept as a medium beside the conventional 35mm.

It's a different format, all I know is the the option is there for viewing format on the Sundance application.

I have no idea or knowledge about the Sony HdCam format besides that. All I know is that it's another format for your film to be shown on instead of 35mm.

[Ken Hodson]

There are tools such as Twixtor or Algolith's plugins. People have reported great sucess with those. It does take some experimentation and render time but I have heard the results are nice. Techniques such as shooting low motion scenes help. Or if you are going to do some high motion, shoot in the 60p mode just for those clips. 60p transfers well to 24p and the loss in resolution won't be noticed as much because of the action.

Secondly I would rather overcome the 30p to 24p issue than place 4:3 SD onto the big screen. 720p is not that far from 1080i once it has been deinterlaced, and we all know how well that can look on the big screen. Loosing resolution due to letter boxing a SD 4:3 really cuts the resolution down, or stong aliasing when the pixels are stretched to a 16:9 frame. If you don't think SD looks like crap on the big screen you must have been watching one amazing story.

"Most festivals takes VHS and DVD for entry. But if you get accepted you got to go to something else."

Not necessarily. Many festivals have digital projection. 24p 30p and sometimes even 60p are accomidated. I would estimate that digital projection will be mainstream at festivals soon. It keeps costs down and they get far more submissions. Way more people are shooting on video these days rather than film. Anyone notice?

"you are right, D4 is HD, but no professional will accept to talk HD if it is not D5"

BS.

[Ken Hodson]

HDCam is a deck recording format. Any transfer house that supports HDCam would gladly take your digital video in uncompressed format. A firewire drive would be a good way to transfer. Or rent a deck yourself!
If they accept HDCam then that means they have a digital projector. If they have a digital projector that means they can project your HD10 film at 30p. 720p ;>)

[Chris Gordon]

Francois, you are mistaken.

Many professionals actually prefer 720p over 1080i because the progressive scan actually provides a more real and lifelike image than the interlaced scan. In fact, with 720p there are more horizontal scan lines on the screen at any one moment than with 1080i. (720 vs 540)

Sports programming, in my opinion, looks unbelievably "life like" in 720p. That's just one of the reasons why ESPN and ABC (my network) have chosen to broadcast in 720p.

-Chris Gordon
Producer
KABC-TV Los Angeles

[Luis Caffesse]

Bob, in response to your questions, I think you should forget about the filmprint concerns. Most major festivals will take video copies to screen. Some will take HD, some will ask for BetaSp. But only a small few will demand a film print.

"If they accept HDCam then that means they have a digital projector. If they have a digital projector that means they can project your HD10 film at 30p. 720p ;>)"

Isn't HDCam only 1080?
You could have your HD10 film projected at 30p, in upconverted 1080.


-Luis


PS.

I will second Ken's "BS" comment on D4 vs. D5.
Every pro I know considers the Varicam to shoot HD, and that's a 720p format.

And by the way, isn't there more to D1, D4, & D5 than just resolution?
D1 as I understood it was uncompressed 10 bit 4:2:2 720x480.
I'll take that over HDV any day.