Super 16mm or HDV JVC Brazilian feature, any DOP out there?!?

Freya Paget · July 3rd, 2004, 05:13 AM

<<<--
Tell me your opinion of the artifacts from converting 30fps to 24. In motion, like a real audience would see it. Not paused, movies don't pause. I'm curious what you think. Please don't comment on the crappy hand held camera work, I was just testing the camera out !
-Les -->>>

Wow, that looked preety amazing!

However I'm not sure my computer is coping so well with the large file size and playback.

The shots look a little slow-mo to me, have you gone frame for frame from 30 to 24?

There also does seem to be quite a bit of severe motion blur, that might be down to the sad speed of this computer however, I managed to speed it up a little and now the blur problems are mostly only really visible on close ups. They are somewhat distracting but then I thought the footage in festen was more distracting.

My feeling is that the problems are minor and could be solved with more reasearch into them. I'm certainly impressed. :)

love

Freya

Freya Paget · July 3rd, 2004, 05:23 AM

Daniel!

One possibility might be to shoot a mixture of 35mm and JVC.
You could buy a really nasty old 35mm camera cheaply and film the MOS stuff on that, then whenever there is dialogue, you could use the JVC. They might not intercut so well but then it all depends on what kind of film it is. That could be part of the style.

The advantage of this would be that you could film the fast motion shots on film and the low motion shots on video. Typically when people are talking they don't move so much and when there is fast action people don't tend to have conversations. There are exceptions to this of course like big rows where people shout and throw things around. ;)

The JVC problems mostly seem to be in the area of fast motion.
It could be a neat compromise for working fast!

love

Freya

Freya Paget · July 3rd, 2004, 05:28 AM

BTW I read a lot of people going on about how the JVc had not been used in a film out before and stuff, but as I understand it, there is a scene in spykids 3 shot on the camera?

I think it is a scene in a phone booth but don't quote me on this I think Mr Rodriguez was rather vague on the matter so I could be wrong and have misunderstood.

love

Freya

Christopher C. Murphy · July 3rd, 2004, 06:36 AM

If that's true regarding the JVC being used on Spy Kids - I think it's worth getting our DVinfo watchdogs on the beat. Who lives in Austin Texas and can knock on his door and ask him? Otherwise, who can find out???!

Maybe his number is actually listed? Anyone tired calling him? I know for a fact that a lot of actors, directors and producers don't have unlisted numbers! When I was in LA doing work for a entertainment company "celebrity red carpet" we actually grabbed phone books and called A and B-list actors, directors etc....

I can't find Rodriguez anywhere though, so maybe someone in Austin has a local phone book? Worth a try...

Heath, can you try and get an interview for Moviemaker?? He's definately the guy to get for a "10 Minute HD Film School" chat.

Murph

Heath McKnight · July 3rd, 2004, 07:29 AM

I'll pitch the idea to my editor. Good one, too.

heath

Christopher C. Murphy · July 3rd, 2004, 07:59 AM

Cool...and just another quick thought, but maybe you can pitch a "Contest" to Moviemaker for a 3 minute "HD Short Film" or anything HD that's 3 minutes or less? The next generation low-budget filmmaker using the latest tools available. Any HDV or HD camera can be used...any type of genre piece you want to make. (no NTSC DV cameras allowed, this is HD and HDV only - our new community!)

It would be cool to have our online DVinfo community be judges. I'd definately do a 3 minute piece for it...we can all whip something up, I'm sure!

The winner gets mentioned in Moviemaker with a Heath McKnight interview? Also, maybe a Robert Rodriguez "10 Minute HD Film School" interview woven in there somehow? I doubt he has time to get involved in a contest, but that would be nice too.

Just a thought!

Murph

Heath McKnight · July 3rd, 2004, 08:02 AM

I don't think they do contests, sorry. Computer Videomaker and others do, however.

heath

Richard Alvarez · July 3rd, 2004, 12:09 PM

Rodriguez doesn't live "in" Austin. He lives in a suburb of Austin.

Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn · July 8th, 2004, 06:02 PM

Go to http://www.hdargentina.com/
They are in Buenos Aires.They have worked in Mexico, Paraguay, Uruguay, Peru, Chile, España.They give you a complete package from camera to NLE, color timing,etc.After this you could transfer your film at Cinecolor Brasil.They work sometimes with them.
They use HDCAM.

Daniel Moloko · July 27th, 2004, 07:58 PM

les dit,

can you tell me if its possible to do a 30p HD10U Footage conversion to 35mm with the CELCO firestorm film print?

http://www.celco.com/Firestorm.asp

or only with the Arrilaser?

can you tell me your email adress?

ciao

Les Dit · July 27th, 2004, 08:05 PM

All film recorders can only do one thing: Put an image on the film. It's up to the preparation process to determine how many frames per second gets translated. ( 30 --> 24 , etc )

I can be mailed at lesdit
at gmail point com
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Moloko : les dit,

can you tell me if its possible to do a 30p HD10U Footage conversion to 35mm with the CELCO firestorm film print?

http://www.celco.com/Firestorm.asp

or only with the Arrilaser?

can you tell me your email adress?

ciao -->>>

Heath McKnight · July 27th, 2004, 08:30 PM

If possible, can we keep this on the boards to help educate others?

Thanks,

heath

Morgan Preston · August 9th, 2004, 08:35 PM

Wouldn't it be simple to render at 720p60 and then convert to 35mm. From what I understand 60 fps blows up to 35 mm beautifully. I have HD footage at 720p60 that looks beautiful. Maybe I'm off base here...but I have been experimenting for these exact reasons(worry over blow up) as we have a feature we want to film starting in october and we have the same fears. We own the 16mm Arriflex BL and are trying to decide now what to film on.

Les Dit · August 9th, 2004, 11:12 PM

That gets you the same place as I did, equivalent to a frame blend of 30P.
If your source is 30 images a second, making 60 or 200 FPS out of it and then going back to 24 for film is the same.

I think it looks pretty good. See the example I posted somewhere in an earlier post, of 30 to 24 .
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Morgan Preston : Wouldn't it be simple to render at 720p60 and then convert to 35mm. From what I understand 60 fps blows up to 35 mm beautifully. I have HD footage at 720p60 that looks beautiful. Maybe I'm off base here...but I have been experimenting for these exact reasons(worry over blow up) as we have a feature we want to film starting in october and we have the same fears. We own the 16mm Arriflex BL and are trying to decide now what to film on. -->>>

Ken Hodson · August 10th, 2004, 07:04 PM

We also have to remember as good as Les's demo clip is, there are dedicated software packages (Algolith and Twixtor) that claim to far exceed the stock After Effects conversion. As Les also points out, you can achieve even better results when you aren't shooting hand held. How the shot is composed, with camera movement taken into consideration will greatly impact the final product.
Shooting in 60p mode for intense action scenes might be recommended. Up res and incorporate back into the 24p project.
The potential of what this cam can do is still to be seen.

July 3rd, 2004, 06:36 AM	#49
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	If that's true regarding the JVC being used on Spy Kids - I think it's worth getting our DVinfo watchdogs on the beat. Who lives in Austin Texas and can knock on his door and ask him? Otherwise, who can find out???! Maybe his number is actually listed? Anyone tired calling him? I know for a fact that a lot of actors, directors and producers don't have unlisted numbers! When I was in LA doing work for a entertainment company "celebrity red carpet" we actually grabbed phone books and called A and B-list actors, directors etc.... I can't find Rodriguez anywhere though, so maybe someone in Austin has a local phone book? Worth a try... Heath, can you try and get an interview for Moviemaker?? He's definately the guy to get for a "10 Minute HD Film School" chat. Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

July 3rd, 2004, 07:29 AM	#50
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I'll pitch the idea to my editor. Good one, too. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 3rd, 2004, 07:59 AM	#51
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Cool...and just another quick thought, but maybe you can pitch a "Contest" to Moviemaker for a 3 minute "HD Short Film" or anything HD that's 3 minutes or less? The next generation low-budget filmmaker using the latest tools available. Any HDV or HD camera can be used...any type of genre piece you want to make. (no NTSC DV cameras allowed, this is HD and HDV only - our new community!) It would be cool to have our online DVinfo community be judges. I'd definately do a 3 minute piece for it...we can all whip something up, I'm sure! The winner gets mentioned in Moviemaker with a Heath McKnight interview? Also, maybe a Robert Rodriguez "10 Minute HD Film School" interview woven in there somehow? I doubt he has time to get involved in a contest, but that would be nice too. Just a thought! Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

July 3rd, 2004, 08:02 AM	#52
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I don't think they do contests, sorry. Computer Videomaker and others do, however. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 27th, 2004, 07:58 PM	#55
Daniel Moloko Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 124	les dit les dit, can you tell me if its possible to do a 30p HD10U Footage conversion to 35mm with the CELCO firestorm film print? http://www.celco.com/Firestorm.asp or only with the Arrilaser? can you tell me your email adress? ciao

July 3rd, 2004, 05:13 AM	#46
Freya Paget Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: U.K. Posts: 32	<<<-- Tell me your opinion of the artifacts from converting 30fps to 24. In motion, like a real audience would see it. Not paused, movies don't pause. I'm curious what you think. Please don't comment on the crappy hand held camera work, I was just testing the camera out ! -Les -->>> Wow, that looked preety amazing! However I'm not sure my computer is coping so well with the large file size and playback. The shots look a little slow-mo to me, have you gone frame for frame from 30 to 24? There also does seem to be quite a bit of severe motion blur, that might be down to the sad speed of this computer however, I managed to speed it up a little and now the blur problems are mostly only really visible on close ups. They are somewhat distracting but then I thought the footage in festen was more distracting. My feeling is that the problems are minor and could be solved with more reasearch into them. I'm certainly impressed. :) love Freya

July 3rd, 2004, 05:23 AM	#47
Freya Paget Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: U.K. Posts: 32	Daniel! One possibility might be to shoot a mixture of 35mm and JVC. You could buy a really nasty old 35mm camera cheaply and film the MOS stuff on that, then whenever there is dialogue, you could use the JVC. They might not intercut so well but then it all depends on what kind of film it is. That could be part of the style. The advantage of this would be that you could film the fast motion shots on film and the low motion shots on video. Typically when people are talking they don't move so much and when there is fast action people don't tend to have conversations. There are exceptions to this of course like big rows where people shout and throw things around. ;) The JVC problems mostly seem to be in the area of fast motion. It could be a neat compromise for working fast! love Freya

July 3rd, 2004, 05:28 AM	#48
Freya Paget Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: U.K. Posts: 32	BTW I read a lot of people going on about how the JVc had not been used in a film out before and stuff, but as I understand it, there is a scene in spykids 3 shot on the camera? I think it is a scene in a phone booth but don't quote me on this I think Mr Rodriguez was rather vague on the matter so I could be wrong and have misunderstood. love Freya

July 3rd, 2004, 12:09 PM	#53
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Rodriguez doesn't live "in" Austin. He lives in a suburb of Austin.

July 8th, 2004, 06:02 PM	#54
Juan M. M. Fiebelkorn Major Player Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Buenos Aires , Argentina Posts: 444	Go to http://www.hdargentina.com/ They are in Buenos Aires.They have worked in Mexico, Paraguay, Uruguay, Peru, Chile, España.They give you a complete package from camera to NLE, color timing,etc.After this you could transfer your film at Cinecolor Brasil.They work sometimes with them. They use HDCAM.

July 27th, 2004, 08:05 PM	#56
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Re: les dit All film recorders can only do one thing: Put an image on the film. It's up to the preparation process to determine how many frames per second gets translated. ( 30 --> 24 , etc ) I can be mailed at lesdit at gmail point com -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Moloko : les dit, can you tell me if its possible to do a 30p HD10U Footage conversion to 35mm with the CELCO firestorm film print? http://www.celco.com/Firestorm.asp or only with the Arrilaser? can you tell me your email adress? ciao -->>>

July 27th, 2004, 08:30 PM	#57
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	If possible, can we keep this on the boards to help educate others? Thanks, heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

August 9th, 2004, 08:35 PM	#58
Morgan Preston New Boot Join Date: May 2004 Location: Bend Oregon Posts: 8	rendered timeline at 720p60 Wouldn't it be simple to render at 720p60 and then convert to 35mm. From what I understand 60 fps blows up to 35 mm beautifully. I have HD footage at 720p60 that looks beautiful. Maybe I'm off base here...but I have been experimenting for these exact reasons(worry over blow up) as we have a feature we want to film starting in october and we have the same fears. We own the 16mm Arriflex BL and are trying to decide now what to film on.

August 9th, 2004, 11:12 PM	#59
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Re: rendered timeline at 720p60 That gets you the same place as I did, equivalent to a frame blend of 30P. If your source is 30 images a second, making 60 or 200 FPS out of it and then going back to 24 for film is the same. I think it looks pretty good. See the example I posted somewhere in an earlier post, of 30 to 24 . -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Morgan Preston : Wouldn't it be simple to render at 720p60 and then convert to 35mm. From what I understand 60 fps blows up to 35 mm beautifully. I have HD footage at 720p60 that looks beautiful. Maybe I'm off base here...but I have been experimenting for these exact reasons(worry over blow up) as we have a feature we want to film starting in october and we have the same fears. We own the 16mm Arriflex BL and are trying to decide now what to film on. -->>>

August 10th, 2004, 07:04 PM	#60
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	We also have to remember as good as Les's demo clip is, there are dedicated software packages (Algolith and Twixtor) that claim to far exceed the stock After Effects conversion. As Les also points out, you can achieve even better results when you aren't shooting hand held. How the shot is composed, with camera movement taken into consideration will greatly impact the final product. Shooting in 60p mode for intense action scenes might be recommended. Up res and incorporate back into the 24p project. The potential of what this cam can do is still to be seen. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.