Super 16mm or HDV JVC Brazilian feature, any DOP out there?!?

Daniel Moloko · June 22nd, 2004, 11:35 PM

i was thinking of buying 100 16mm cans, and shoot more than a Thousand minutes, if i have the time in six weeks to do that.

i think it will cost about 10k only in film cans.

but, what about the film camera itself? and the DOP?

and what about the film to tape transfer that i need to get to look at the footage, etc...

im not even counting with the production itself, food, the rest of the crew, cast...

anyway, maybe the super 16mm will give me a good look.

anyone here knows who can be my DP with a super 16mm camera? and really wants to come to brazil to shoot something good (and very different from what they are usually shooting out there)...

maybe your friend DP, heath? what he thinks about it?

ciao

Glenn Gipson · June 23rd, 2004, 06:04 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Belics : Daniel,

If you have $100K just as a shooting budget then why aren't you going 35mm? That is more than enough for a 10:1 shooting ratio and a two hour film. You have no transfer expenses, you have a better image and more flexibility and so much more.

To even think of shooting DV is a waste of time. -->>>

I wouldn't say it's a waste of time...after all, look at 28 Days Later, that had to be over 100k. Anyways, even though this gentleman has 100k to spend, he hasn't mentioned other aspects of his budget yet, so it is impossible to make a decision on which format he should shoot on based on his limited info. After all, there are single movie sets and effects that can cost millions of dollars a piece, so my question is, what are the rest of his production cost? He hasn't mention them yet.

Rob Belics · June 23rd, 2004, 06:43 AM

Heath,

I've done it. $100K is plenty for 35mm through post, even at 10:1.

Glenn,

28 Days spent a ton of money and time in post to make that image presentable. Money that would not have to be spent if he used 35 or 16 film.

Daniel,

If you use 35mm, call Panavision in Brazil. They can be extremely cooperative and can find you a DP as well as get you a deal on a camera and lenses. There are plenty of other places to rent all that also.

You can save money going Super16 and get an excellent look, especially with the new Vision2 stock from Kodak. However it will cost to have it blown up to 35 later but much cheaper than trying to get DV to work well that way. With 35mm, you can contact print it and wouldn't even have that expense.

Getting a "video workprint" costs about 18 cents per foot, sometimes less. That is per foot of what you want printed, not of everything you shot.

Would you be paying for a DP to come to Brazil, including expenses? Some come with their own cameras. I'd do it. If I was single and "mit out" kids.

Steve Crisdale · June 23rd, 2004, 06:49 AM

Daniel,

After looking at what appears to be the mechanical process of digital to film transfer, which does appear to be a projected image transfer, I seriously believe the 24fps frame conversion from 30fps issue to be either a misinterpretation of the process, or an attempt to deliberately complicate for whatever profit something that is quite straightforward.

Perhaps you really should consider some HD10s (not the HD1 OK) for shooting your production. Given the higher resolution, the ability to directly edit the shots straight after shooting, a streamlined workflow within the major NLE's without costly conversion hardware and the capacity to control other mediums of distribution directly i.e. DVD and Webstreamed WMV9......etc, etc........

Besides, it would really be worth seeing the reaction if Brazil had not only the first prodution company/crew to produce a HDV feature, but that it also was good enough to wipe the smiles off the Doubting Thomas's faces!!!

Daniel Moloko · June 23rd, 2004, 09:25 AM

The budget...

glenn, the movie is set at night, i think 70% at night, 30% daylight.

70% night but 30% of 70% EXT. NIGHT and 40% INT. NIGHT

its an urban storyline.

and theres just an action scene with cars and a stunt. that the hardest part. and that all.

Daniel Moloko · June 23rd, 2004, 09:54 AM

i dont want a DP for free, i just want one that doesnt cost too much and has a good camera to bring it with him.

for sure we will cover all the expenses.

and for sure we have at least 6k for this DP with the Camera to work with us for 6 weeks.

thats it!

Les Dit · June 23rd, 2004, 10:37 AM

Steve,
The process is done on a "film recorder", and is one frame at a time. The company I am associated with does this type of work all the time.
You are right about the big deal being made to translate 30 to 24. With the HD10 doing progressive frames, the simple way of converting to 24, frame blending, does a pretty darned good job. Since it is progressive there are none of the tell tale interlacing ( jagged edges ) artifacts to see. I've done the test and it looks very presentable. The biggest problem on the JVC is exposure control and exposure range, no control over that.

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : Daniel,

After looking at what appears to be the mechanical process of digital to film transfer, which does appear to be a projected image transfer, I seriously believe the 24fps frame conversion from 30fps issue to be either a misinterpretation of the process, or an attempt to deliberately complicate for whatever profit something that is quite straightforward.

Perhaps you really should consider some HD10s (not the HD1 OK) for shooting your production. Given the higher resolution, the ability to directly edit the shots straight after shooting, a streamlined workflow within the major NLE's without costly conversion hardware and the capacity to control other mediums of distribution directly i.e. DVD and Webstreamed WMV9......etc, etc........

Besides, it would really be worth seeing the reaction if Brazil had not only the first prodution company/crew to produce a HDV feature, but that it also was good enough to wipe the smiles off the Doubting Thomas's faces!!! -->>>

Les Dit · June 23rd, 2004, 10:48 AM

Daniel,
Are all films from Brazil going to look like "Cidade de Deus " ? ;)

Well, I hope so.... I think that is one of my top favorite films now!
If you know of any translated pages on how they shot it, I'd love to see them.
Did you know it was timed digital ? ( A Digital Intermediate )
For example, the yellow scenes are a result of digital color manipulation.
I'm sure they used 16mm for a lot of the 'combat' style shooting.
My company can do a digital scan of your film for $6000, and let you do the digital work there. But only if I like your film :)
-Les

Christopher C. Murphy · June 23rd, 2004, 11:10 AM

Les, you can use babblefish to translate. It's Altavista's translator.

Murph

Les Dit · June 23rd, 2004, 12:00 PM

Cool, they do the language, but I need something to translate from too. Any links for that movie? Amazing how Northern Americans didn't write too much about that wonderful film.
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : Les, you can use babblefish to translate. It's Altavista's translator.

Murph -->>>

Daniel Moloko · June 23rd, 2004, 01:25 PM

if you scan the film, where do we have to edit and can your company transfer the final cut to 35mm?

anyway, i thnk the HD10 would only be please to use in short's.

i think i will get it made in super 16mm.

les, city of god was made by a company here in são paulo. im from the northeast. a city called Recife where there aint a single transfer house or anything, not even a 35mm camera im able to find in the whole northeast.

they made city of god, the filming, for about 1 million dollars. the pre-production till the shooting. all the actors were non-actors before this movie. so, they spent a whole years teaching the people how to act. hehe

anyway, my script isnt a movie like city of god. in a way theres something equal, cause both of the scripts its about CONTRASTS of brazilian society, and in a way, of the mid-class.
i think it looks more like Amores Perros or like Punch Drunk love - as a urban movie about "crazy-normal" people, but without the comedy. sometimes i see something equal to a Hal Ashby movie (Shampoo, or Last Detail)

im still searching for a DP to do the job for 1k a week with the camera.

Daniel Moloko · June 24th, 2004, 11:22 AM

when you say the footage from HD10 to a 35MM print looks very presentable, do you mean its better than any other 35mm print from DV 720x480 material?

Les Dit · June 24th, 2004, 11:44 AM

Personally I think that DV material looks like a web cam after seeing the HDV. It's just plain out of focus looking.

By presentable, I mean that the 30 to 24 is not distracting at all, even on active looking shots.

The only problem is that the lighting has to be very controlled for the JVC for it not to blow out the brights.

On your question about dealing with scanned 16mm film, I am working on a plugin to allow a low cost edit program , like Prem. Pro to do the edit, with a 10 bit input to support full DI color correction on the first step. After that 8 bits is fine. 35mm prints only show 8 bits anyway, I've worked on several feature films that way. A laser filmout price to 35mm is 30 to 40 thousand. The nice thing is that you get a DVD and HD digital version out of the process at the same time!

-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Moloko : when you say the footage from HD10 to a 35MM print looks very presentable, do you mean its better than any other 35mm print from DV 720x480 material? -->>>

Daniel Moloko · June 24th, 2004, 12:11 PM

how much will cost for a 35mm print from HDV?

i will have a short movie in HDV with 12 minutes long.

how much this will cost?

Barry Green · June 24th, 2004, 04:06 PM

Printing from a DV source will cost about $300 per minute, so about $3600. DVFILM charges $450/minute for HD. However, they specifically say they can't do a satisfactory job from 30P source.

Swiss Effects doesn't list HD as an option on their site.

I don't know of any film transfer labs that can transfer from 30P, so you'll have to contact labs and see if they can do it.

June 22nd, 2004, 11:35 PM	#16
Daniel Moloko Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 124	rob... i was thinking of buying 100 16mm cans, and shoot more than a Thousand minutes, if i have the time in six weeks to do that. i think it will cost about 10k only in film cans. but, what about the film camera itself? and the DOP? and what about the film to tape transfer that i need to get to look at the footage, etc... im not even counting with the production itself, food, the rest of the crew, cast... anyway, maybe the super 16mm will give me a good look. anyone here knows who can be my DP with a super 16mm camera? and really wants to come to brazil to shoot something good (and very different from what they are usually shooting out there)... maybe your friend DP, heath? what he thinks about it? ciao

June 23rd, 2004, 09:54 AM	#21
Daniel Moloko Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 124	rob... i dont want a DP for free, i just want one that doesnt cost too much and has a good camera to bring it with him. for sure we will cover all the expenses. and for sure we have at least 6k for this DP with the Camera to work with us for 6 weeks. thats it!

June 23rd, 2004, 10:37 AM	#22
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	film transfers Steve, The process is done on a "film recorder", and is one frame at a time. The company I am associated with does this type of work all the time. You are right about the big deal being made to translate 30 to 24. With the HD10 doing progressive frames, the simple way of converting to 24, frame blending, does a pretty darned good job. Since it is progressive there are none of the tell tale interlacing ( jagged edges ) artifacts to see. I've done the test and it looks very presentable. The biggest problem on the JVC is exposure control and exposure range, no control over that. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Steve Crisdale : Daniel, After looking at what appears to be the mechanical process of digital to film transfer, which does appear to be a projected image transfer, I seriously believe the 24fps frame conversion from 30fps issue to be either a misinterpretation of the process, or an attempt to deliberately complicate for whatever profit something that is quite straightforward. Perhaps you really should consider some HD10s (not the HD1 OK) for shooting your production. Given the higher resolution, the ability to directly edit the shots straight after shooting, a streamlined workflow within the major NLE's without costly conversion hardware and the capacity to control other mediums of distribution directly i.e. DVD and Webstreamed WMV9......etc, etc........ Besides, it would really be worth seeing the reaction if Brazil had not only the first prodution company/crew to produce a HDV feature, but that it also was good enough to wipe the smiles off the Doubting Thomas's faces!!! -->>>

June 23rd, 2004, 10:48 AM	#23
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	off topic, film from Brazil Daniel, Are all films from Brazil going to look like "Cidade de Deus " ? ;) Well, I hope so.... I think that is one of my top favorite films now! If you know of any translated pages on how they shot it, I'd love to see them. Did you know it was timed digital ? ( A Digital Intermediate ) For example, the yellow scenes are a result of digital color manipulation. I'm sure they used 16mm for a lot of the 'combat' style shooting. My company can do a digital scan of your film for $6000, and let you do the digital work there. But only if I like your film :) -Les

June 23rd, 2004, 11:10 AM	#24
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Les, you can use babblefish to translate. It's Altavista's translator. Murph __________________ Christopher C. Murphy Director, Producer, Writer

June 23rd, 2004, 06:04 AM	#17
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Belics : Daniel, If you have $100K just as a shooting budget then why aren't you going 35mm? That is more than enough for a 10:1 shooting ratio and a two hour film. You have no transfer expenses, you have a better image and more flexibility and so much more. To even think of shooting DV is a waste of time. -->>> I wouldn't say it's a waste of time...after all, look at 28 Days Later, that had to be over 100k. Anyways, even though this gentleman has 100k to spend, he hasn't mentioned other aspects of his budget yet, so it is impossible to make a decision on which format he should shoot on based on his limited info. After all, there are single movie sets and effects that can cost millions of dollars a piece, so my question is, what are the rest of his production cost? He hasn't mention them yet.

June 23rd, 2004, 06:43 AM	#18
Rob Belics Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 581	Heath, I've done it. $100K is plenty for 35mm through post, even at 10:1. Glenn, 28 Days spent a ton of money and time in post to make that image presentable. Money that would not have to be spent if he used 35 or 16 film. Daniel, If you use 35mm, call Panavision in Brazil. They can be extremely cooperative and can find you a DP as well as get you a deal on a camera and lenses. There are plenty of other places to rent all that also. You can save money going Super16 and get an excellent look, especially with the new Vision2 stock from Kodak. However it will cost to have it blown up to 35 later but much cheaper than trying to get DV to work well that way. With 35mm, you can contact print it and wouldn't even have that expense. Getting a "video workprint" costs about 18 cents per foot, sometimes less. That is per foot of what you want printed, not of everything you shot. Would you be paying for a DP to come to Brazil, including expenses? Some come with their own cameras. I'd do it. If I was single and "mit out" kids.

June 23rd, 2004, 06:49 AM	#19
Steve Crisdale Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Katoomba NSW Australia Posts: 635	Daniel, After looking at what appears to be the mechanical process of digital to film transfer, which does appear to be a projected image transfer, I seriously believe the 24fps frame conversion from 30fps issue to be either a misinterpretation of the process, or an attempt to deliberately complicate for whatever profit something that is quite straightforward. Perhaps you really should consider some HD10s (not the HD1 OK) for shooting your production. Given the higher resolution, the ability to directly edit the shots straight after shooting, a streamlined workflow within the major NLE's without costly conversion hardware and the capacity to control other mediums of distribution directly i.e. DVD and Webstreamed WMV9......etc, etc........ Besides, it would really be worth seeing the reaction if Brazil had not only the first prodution company/crew to produce a HDV feature, but that it also was good enough to wipe the smiles off the Doubting Thomas's faces!!!

June 23rd, 2004, 09:25 AM	#20
Daniel Moloko Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 124	The budget... glenn, the movie is set at night, i think 70% at night, 30% daylight. 70% night but 30% of 70% EXT. NIGHT and 40% INT. NIGHT its an urban storyline. and theres just an action scene with cars and a stunt. that the hardest part. and that all.

June 23rd, 2004, 12:00 PM	#25
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Cool, they do the language, but I need something to translate from too. Any links for that movie? Amazing how Northern Americans didn't write too much about that wonderful film. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : Les, you can use babblefish to translate. It's Altavista's translator. Murph -->>>

June 23rd, 2004, 01:25 PM	#26
Daniel Moloko Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 124	les, where are you from? if you scan the film, where do we have to edit and can your company transfer the final cut to 35mm? anyway, i thnk the HD10 would only be please to use in short's. i think i will get it made in super 16mm. les, city of god was made by a company here in são paulo. im from the northeast. a city called Recife where there aint a single transfer house or anything, not even a 35mm camera im able to find in the whole northeast. they made city of god, the filming, for about 1 million dollars. the pre-production till the shooting. all the actors were non-actors before this movie. so, they spent a whole years teaching the people how to act. hehe anyway, my script isnt a movie like city of god. in a way theres something equal, cause both of the scripts its about CONTRASTS of brazilian society, and in a way, of the mid-class. i think it looks more like Amores Perros or like Punch Drunk love - as a urban movie about "crazy-normal" people, but without the comedy. sometimes i see something equal to a Hal Ashby movie (Shampoo, or Last Detail) im still searching for a DP to do the job for 1k a week with the camera.

June 24th, 2004, 11:22 AM	#27
Daniel Moloko Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 124	les when you say the footage from HD10 to a 35MM print looks very presentable, do you mean its better than any other 35mm print from DV 720x480 material?

June 24th, 2004, 11:44 AM	#28
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Re: les Personally I think that DV material looks like a web cam after seeing the HDV. It's just plain out of focus looking. By presentable, I mean that the 30 to 24 is not distracting at all, even on active looking shots. The only problem is that the lighting has to be very controlled for the JVC for it not to blow out the brights. On your question about dealing with scanned 16mm film, I am working on a plugin to allow a low cost edit program , like Prem. Pro to do the edit, with a 10 bit input to support full DI color correction on the first step. After that 8 bits is fine. 35mm prints only show 8 bits anyway, I've worked on several feature films that way. A laser filmout price to 35mm is 30 to 40 thousand. The nice thing is that you get a DVD and HD digital version out of the process at the same time! -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Daniel Moloko : when you say the footage from HD10 to a 35MM print looks very presentable, do you mean its better than any other 35mm print from DV 720x480 material? -->>>

June 24th, 2004, 12:11 PM	#29
Daniel Moloko Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Brazil Posts: 124	les how much will cost for a 35mm print from HDV? i will have a short movie in HDV with 12 minutes long. how much this will cost?

June 24th, 2004, 04:06 PM	#30
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Printing from a DV source will cost about $300 per minute, so about $3600. DVFILM charges $450/minute for HD. However, they specifically say they can't do a satisfactory job from 30P source. Swiss Effects doesn't list HD as an option on their site. I don't know of any film transfer labs that can transfer from 30P, so you'll have to contact labs and see if they can do it.