Hidden Interface Connection?

Heath McKnight · May 4th, 2004, 03:07 PM

If there were some firmware available, we'd have heard about it. I talked to JVC about the rumored firmware update to fix the "canned" audio sound. They said it's a hardware issue, ie, a balanced mic going into an unbalanced jack.

Some folks looked at the service manual and found very little to help out.

heath

Sten Newfield · May 4th, 2004, 04:11 PM

I think there's a bit of confusion what I was trying to say. I agree about the firmware, if it was there, we'd already have it. Also, if changing the camera functionality would just be matter of changing the firmware, then why didn't the JVC pro divison "fix" the iris/shutter and the other issues in the first place when they were modifying the HD1 to HD10? They of all people knew about the problems.

However, there's no doubt that you can do SOMETHING to the camera using the service port. I own the service manual, it's right there, GR-HD1US_sm.pdf, on page 20. What I'm interested in, is getting to know WHAT can be done using the service port.

Ken Hodson · May 4th, 2004, 05:21 PM

I myself encourage all investigation and development in these regards. The HD10 and HD1 are essentially identical except some cosmetic changes and a few firmware tweaks. They didn't redo the electronics. My guess is that edge enhancement settings as well as 25p are available. I don't believe you could just make the cam fully manual but I bet the settings could be tweaked so as never to allow the auto settings to go too out of wack.
Ken

Rob Hester · May 20th, 2004, 11:15 PM

Wondering if anyone is still interested in this topic...My JVC DV3000U has the exact same service interface connection. I'd really like to snoop around in there. If anyone wants to send that service manual over that'd be a dream...:D

here is a snapshot:
http://www.aloofhosting.com/robh/service.jpg
(right click, save as)

Anyways, cmon, keep up the talks...it's only innocent discussion at this point in the game!

Rob

Will Thompson · May 21st, 2004, 10:11 AM

I'm definitely interested, but someone really needs to see if they can get the camera to talk back through the port. I'm one of those programmers who grew up hacking software I couldn't afford (but didn't know how to use anyway). So, broadcast technology isn't my trained area of epertise, but programming is.

I'd be willing to experiment with my HD1, but I'm not really willing to take time just to play with the port. So if someone wants to make the first breakthrough, I'll take up the new hobby too.

However, as a programmer, I have to agree with Heath that it's not likely that much can be gained from firmware access. If I were designing the HD1/10 (from a programmer's perspective), I'd say there is a hardware interface (or 2 or 3) for the buttons on the camera. This would then interface with the front of the software, which would have access to camera settings and controls. The settings are probably stored in data structures silimar to a computer BIOS. The software controlling these hardware controls (focus, zoom, shutter, etc.) is probably compiled, though, for whatever processor is used in the camera. So, anything fancy you might want to do with software would definitely NOT be possible without having 1) the original source, and 2) the ability to compile said source and overwrite the old firmware. Plain and simple - that won't happen.

But it is possible that the settings data may be of some use. You might, for instance, be able to disable whatever is processing edge enhancement (this is the only reason I'm interested - see my very long post about deEE). You will not, in all likelyhood, be able to do 24p, or ANYTHING that would be considered a new feature. That would require new software. You MIGHT, however, have access to settings for current, already implemented features. So you could conceivably be able to exhibit more control over things to which are already accessible.

I will say with almost certainty that manual control, 24p, and noise-reduction are not possible. These features were probably not intended for the camera from the design stage. Optimistically, is could be possible to disable ACG and EE, and that's about it. Remember, JVC had to thouroughly test this camera before it was released, and all the settings are there for a reason. It's etirely possible that this thing is already tweaked and any changes just might make it worse. Or, it's entirely possible that JVC was in a hurry to release it and had to disable some functions that we might not know about.

Bottom line, it's a crap shoot. If anyone wants to take the time for the first initial step, let me know.

Heath McKnight · May 21st, 2004, 10:15 AM

Will,

I feel you are right; I don't think we can make our HD10s and HD1s into mini-CineAltas. I'm sure I mentioned this before, but someone once took apart their XL-1, hoping to get 24p and other stuff. After a spectacular event (not my review, mind you) that ended in total loss, I don't think we ever heard from the poor guy again...And that's around $3500 down the drain! ARGH!

heath

Rob Hester · May 21st, 2004, 01:33 PM

Quote:

The settings are probably stored in data structures silimar to a computer BIOS. The software controlling these hardware controls (focus, zoom, shutter, etc.) is probably compiled, though, for whatever processor is used in the camera. So, anything fancy you might want to do with software would definitely NOT be possible without having 1) the original source, and 2) the ability to compile said source and overwrite the old firmware. Plain and simple - that won't happen.

Quoted from http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...5&pagenumber=4
************************************************
I shouldn't mention this, but JVC used the Toas Intent VOS for the GRDV3000 (for the firmware I think), and so I wouldn't be surprised if they used it for the HD10, a bit of study, and lots of research (parts, circuits, and memory map), reverse engineering and you should be able to reprogram it.
http://tao-group.com/

Notice the DV3000:
http://tao-group.com/solutions/solutions.php

Here the DV3000. is shown running a game or something (I don't know exactly what it is haven't read it all):
http://withintent.biz/index2.php?Cat=7

It's list of partner links tells everything:
http://tao-group.com/partner_links/partner_links.php

Actually, if you could reprogram the DV3000, it might be possible to produce a close to 720i signal direct to disk off of it (with 5 lux lowlux), assuming most of the pixels were available to download live, and reprogram it's manual controlls. What's a secondhand DV3000 going for now days?
************************************************

And then I posted...

************************************************
Here is a piece of software for Linux which codes with Tao's Intent RTOS, as he says is on the 3000U and possibly HD10. Maybe this will be of some use to someone?

"Codewarrior"
http://www.metrowerks.com/MW/download/default.asp

Rob
************************************************

Maybe if we keep at this a bit longer there will be some rewards...I wasn't thinking 24p or more controls, just hopefully disabling AGC, or, for my camera, enable progressive scan for squeeze mode and other wide modes. For the HD1 users, hopefully they could do a 'dumb' swap with HD10 firmware...this would be the easiest, as everyone prettymuch agrees that there aren't any hardware differences between the two.

Anyways, right now I think we should try to build up as much knowledge as possible, because if we never push it, we are assuring ourselves that this will never be solved. If we keep this discussion going, hopefully it will gain attraction, more minds will be put on the problem, and even if we realize that no hacks are possible...at least it has been throuroughly expounded.

Graham Jones · September 4th, 2004, 07:17 AM

I agree with Rob's attitude...

it's not going to be some sweetshop where you can have whatever you want - but you might be able to shift frame rate from 30 to 25 if hardware is same in HD1/0 and PD1 which it likely is; while not shifting HD to SD.... ie 25 HD

It's worth being open minded

Heath McKnight · September 4th, 2004, 07:33 AM

I don't think it can happen, simply because when other people tried fiddling with non-HDV cameras (Canon, Sony, JVC, etc.), things didn't happen the way they'd hoped. And they were out their warranty and their camera, in many cases.

But, it's up to you, not us.

Good luck,

heath

Graham Jones · September 4th, 2004, 08:22 AM

I don't think it can happen either Heath. The point at which I stop inquiring comes later though.

Wayne Morellini · November 11th, 2005, 06:08 AM

It depends on where ever what you want is locked down in the camera.

With older hardware many non programmable circuits were used, or with the local code locked on the chip itself. This effectively stops you from changing things. But if it is a programmable DSP, then yes, it maybe possible to completely replace the firmware section with something that works.

Just changing settings or data structures may also limit the possibilities (like 25p/24p/HD recording) as said (unless the software is set up to be controlled by data structures).

How ever, despite rumours of this or that, it has been shown that sharpening can be changed, and I think also colour matrix, which are two significant improvements, but not enough.

Something I have just been considering, is making a comedy post about solving all our problems by crossing all the HDV/PROHD cameras to make a new camera. Then list the specification of this new super camera with the worst features of all the cameras combined (like 19Mb/s PROHD fully auto single chip, can't see in a dim room etc).

I don't think anybody is going to make one with the best features combined.

re-edit:
Forgot to mention:

Sten, that GR-HD1US_sm.pdf file do you have a link, it doesn't seem to be working in the text?

There is a blog that has all the inks to the firmware things including successful attempts:
http://jvcgr-pd1.blogspot.com/2005/0...e-hacking.html

Thanks

Wayne.

May 4th, 2004, 03:07 PM	#16
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	If there were some firmware available, we'd have heard about it. I talked to JVC about the rumored firmware update to fix the "canned" audio sound. They said it's a hardware issue, ie, a balanced mic going into an unbalanced jack. Some folks looked at the service manual and found very little to help out. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

May 4th, 2004, 04:11 PM	#17
Sten Newfield Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: San Diego, CA Posts: 36	I think there's a bit of confusion what I was trying to say. I agree about the firmware, if it was there, we'd already have it. Also, if changing the camera functionality would just be matter of changing the firmware, then why didn't the JVC pro divison "fix" the iris/shutter and the other issues in the first place when they were modifying the HD1 to HD10? They of all people knew about the problems. However, there's no doubt that you can do SOMETHING to the camera using the service port. I own the service manual, it's right there, GR-HD1US_sm.pdf, on page 20. What I'm interested in, is getting to know WHAT can be done using the service port. __________________ -ztn

May 4th, 2004, 05:21 PM	#18
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I myself encourage all investigation and development in these regards. The HD10 and HD1 are essentially identical except some cosmetic changes and a few firmware tweaks. They didn't redo the electronics. My guess is that edge enhancement settings as well as 25p are available. I don't believe you could just make the cam fully manual but I bet the settings could be tweaked so as never to allow the auto settings to go too out of wack. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

May 20th, 2004, 11:15 PM	#19
Rob Hester Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Toronto, Ontario Posts: 113	Wondering if anyone is still interested in this topic...My JVC DV3000U has the exact same service interface connection. I'd really like to snoop around in there. If anyone wants to send that service manual over that'd be a dream...:D here is a snapshot: http://www.aloofhosting.com/robh/service.jpg (right click, save as) Anyways, cmon, keep up the talks...it's only innocent discussion at this point in the game! Rob __________________ JVC DV3000U - 30P (non-interlaced) capture on a budget - tests@http://robvideo.netfirms.com

May 21st, 2004, 10:15 AM	#21
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Will, I feel you are right; I don't think we can make our HD10s and HD1s into mini-CineAltas. I'm sure I mentioned this before, but someone once took apart their XL-1, hoping to get 24p and other stuff. After a spectacular event (not my review, mind you) that ended in total loss, I don't think we ever heard from the poor guy again...And that's around $3500 down the drain! ARGH! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

May 21st, 2004, 10:11 AM	#20
Will Thompson Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 75	I'm definitely interested, but someone really needs to see if they can get the camera to talk back through the port. I'm one of those programmers who grew up hacking software I couldn't afford (but didn't know how to use anyway). So, broadcast technology isn't my trained area of epertise, but programming is. I'd be willing to experiment with my HD1, but I'm not really willing to take time just to play with the port. So if someone wants to make the first breakthrough, I'll take up the new hobby too. However, as a programmer, I have to agree with Heath that it's not likely that much can be gained from firmware access. If I were designing the HD1/10 (from a programmer's perspective), I'd say there is a hardware interface (or 2 or 3) for the buttons on the camera. This would then interface with the front of the software, which would have access to camera settings and controls. The settings are probably stored in data structures silimar to a computer BIOS. The software controlling these hardware controls (focus, zoom, shutter, etc.) is probably compiled, though, for whatever processor is used in the camera. So, anything fancy you might want to do with software would definitely NOT be possible without having 1) the original source, and 2) the ability to compile said source and overwrite the old firmware. Plain and simple - that won't happen. But it is possible that the settings data may be of some use. You might, for instance, be able to disable whatever is processing edge enhancement (this is the only reason I'm interested - see my very long post about deEE). You will not, in all likelyhood, be able to do 24p, or ANYTHING that would be considered a new feature. That would require new software. You MIGHT, however, have access to settings for current, already implemented features. So you could conceivably be able to exhibit more control over things to which are already accessible. I will say with almost certainty that manual control, 24p, and noise-reduction are not possible. These features were probably not intended for the camera from the design stage. Optimistically, is could be possible to disable ACG and EE, and that's about it. Remember, JVC had to thouroughly test this camera before it was released, and all the settings are there for a reason. It's etirely possible that this thing is already tweaked and any changes just might make it worse. Or, it's entirely possible that JVC was in a hurry to release it and had to disable some functions that we might not know about. Bottom line, it's a crap shoot. If anyone wants to take the time for the first initial step, let me know.

September 4th, 2004, 07:17 AM	#23
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	I agree with Rob's attitude... it's not going to be some sweetshop where you can have whatever you want - but you might be able to shift frame rate from 30 to 25 if hardware is same in HD1/0 and PD1 which it likely is; while not shifting HD to SD.... ie 25 HD It's worth being open minded

September 4th, 2004, 07:33 AM	#24
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I don't think it can happen, simply because when other people tried fiddling with non-HDV cameras (Canon, Sony, JVC, etc.), things didn't happen the way they'd hoped. And they were out their warranty and their camera, in many cases. But, it's up to you, not us. Good luck, heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

September 4th, 2004, 08:22 AM	#25
Graham Jones Major Player Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 489	I don't think it can happen either Heath. The point at which I stop inquiring comes later though.

November 11th, 2005, 06:08 AM	#26
Wayne Morellini Inner Circle Join Date: May 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 2,762	It depends on where ever what you want is locked down in the camera. With older hardware many non programmable circuits were used, or with the local code locked on the chip itself. This effectively stops you from changing things. But if it is a programmable DSP, then yes, it maybe possible to completely replace the firmware section with something that works. Just changing settings or data structures may also limit the possibilities (like 25p/24p/HD recording) as said (unless the software is set up to be controlled by data structures). How ever, despite rumours of this or that, it has been shown that sharpening can be changed, and I think also colour matrix, which are two significant improvements, but not enough. Something I have just been considering, is making a comedy post about solving all our problems by crossing all the HDV/PROHD cameras to make a new camera. Then list the specification of this new super camera with the worst features of all the cameras combined (like 19Mb/s PROHD fully auto single chip, can't see in a dim room etc). I don't think anybody is going to make one with the best features combined. re-edit: Forgot to mention: Sten, that GR-HD1US_sm.pdf file do you have a link, it doesn't seem to be working in the text? There is a blog that has all the inks to the firmware things including successful attempts: http://jvcgr-pd1.blogspot.com/2005/0...e-hacking.html Thanks Wayne.