HD1 vs. HD10 - PAL vs. NTSC

Berny Kellerer · March 14th, 2004, 06:32 AM

Dear all, I am new to the board and would like to take this opportunity to
introduce myself: My name is Berny, I am CD of a young, London based film production company.
I am very interested in buying one of the new JVC HDTV camcorders, either the
HD1 or the HD10. I know that operating
a NTSC camera in a PAL country means
some extra hassle, but it shouldn't be too
much of a problem for us (as we are
already using some NTSC equipment).
There are two things I just do not
get, hopefully one of you guys will be able
to answer my questions (I had a look at
some other threads, but haven't found what I was looking for), sorry if those
things should have been asked in the past.

1. As the technology used in the HD1 and
the HD10 is virtually the same (apart from the XLR inputs and the colour bar generator), I am really wondering why one should buy the more expensive HD10. Yes, I know that there is this "edge enhancement" problem, but isn't there a way to avoid EE while shooting ?
Is there are direct comparison between the two cameras ?

2. OK, let's say we shoot a music video in
HD. The clients needs the final product on a BetaCam tape for TV distribution, but would also like to put the HD Clip on a bonus computer CD ROM. The CD ROM clip is no problem (as we do not have to change the resolution), but we will also have to do a downconversion of the video (from HD to SD for distribution on tape).
Will the image still look sharper and more detailed after this conversion ? I know this may sound like a stupid question to most of you, but again:
I do not get this point, so to put it very simple: Does a downconversion mean that the image will look like an "ordinary" DV Cam ? Or will it be "more detailed".

Thanks for your help !

David Newman · March 14th, 2004, 01:04 PM

1. For HD work the edge enhancement is a pain and can't be avoided with shooting techniques. It will always appear in sharp transitions from light to dark objects. However, it you are intending to do down-converts, many have argued that the EE gives the SD output additional sharpness (in a good way.) However this can be added to the HD10 in post if desired. i.e. HD10 is more flexible than the HD1.

2. Yes, the HD1 or HD10 down-converted to SD will typically look sharper and more detailed than a production shot on an SD camera.

Berny Kellerer · March 14th, 2004, 04:09 PM

Thanks David !

I read an article about EE, and saw some still frames showing this artificial sharpness. I really wonder how EE looks in motion: Are there any sample clips online where EE is really noticeable ?
If no clips are available, could you explain me how it will look like ?

Thanks again.

David Newman · March 14th, 2004, 06:06 PM

To me it looks the same in motion as it does still. It is worse with horizontal edges -- it adds a black border to high contrast edges. This clip has lots of it
http://videosketch.myhome.cx/sl-sank...30-ps-5137.wmv
Look at the top of the white circle sign in front of the black train. Once you can see it, you can see it throughout the footage.

Berny Kellerer · March 16th, 2004, 05:37 AM

Thank you for the link, David. I have a last question: What kind of Mac software can be used to down-convert the video ?

David Newman · March 16th, 2004, 10:46 AM

Sorry, I'm not a Mac expert. I was PC tools like Premiere Pro, Virtual Dub, Vegas etc.

March 14th, 2004, 06:32 AM	#1
Berny Kellerer New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austria Posts: 6	HD1 vs. HD10 - PAL vs. NTSC - HELP !!! Dear all, I am new to the board and would like to take this opportunity to introduce myself: My name is Berny, I am CD of a young, London based film production company. I am very interested in buying one of the new JVC HDTV camcorders, either the HD1 or the HD10. I know that operating a NTSC camera in a PAL country means some extra hassle, but it shouldn't be too much of a problem for us (as we are already using some NTSC equipment). There are two things I just do not get, hopefully one of you guys will be able to answer my questions (I had a look at some other threads, but haven't found what I was looking for), sorry if those things should have been asked in the past. 1. As the technology used in the HD1 and the HD10 is virtually the same (apart from the XLR inputs and the colour bar generator), I am really wondering why one should buy the more expensive HD10. Yes, I know that there is this "edge enhancement" problem, but isn't there a way to avoid EE while shooting ? Is there are direct comparison between the two cameras ? 2. OK, let's say we shoot a music video in HD. The clients needs the final product on a BetaCam tape for TV distribution, but would also like to put the HD Clip on a bonus computer CD ROM. The CD ROM clip is no problem (as we do not have to change the resolution), but we will also have to do a downconversion of the video (from HD to SD for distribution on tape). Will the image still look sharper and more detailed after this conversion ? I know this may sound like a stupid question to most of you, but again: I do not get this point, so to put it very simple: Does a downconversion mean that the image will look like an "ordinary" DV Cam ? Or will it be "more detailed". Thanks for your help !

March 14th, 2004, 01:04 PM	#2
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	1. For HD work the edge enhancement is a pain and can't be avoided with shooting techniques. It will always appear in sharp transitions from light to dark objects. However, it you are intending to do down-converts, many have argued that the EE gives the SD output additional sharpness (in a good way.) However this can be added to the HD10 in post if desired. i.e. HD10 is more flexible than the HD1. 2. Yes, the HD1 or HD10 down-converted to SD will typically look sharper and more detailed than a production shot on an SD camera. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 14th, 2004, 06:06 PM	#4
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	To me it looks the same in motion as it does still. It is worse with horizontal edges -- it adds a black border to high contrast edges. This clip has lots of it http://videosketch.myhome.cx/sl-sank...30-ps-5137.wmv Look at the top of the white circle sign in front of the black train. Once you can see it, you can see it throughout the footage. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 16th, 2004, 10:46 AM	#6
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Sorry, I'm not a Mac expert. I was PC tools like Premiere Pro, Virtual Dub, Vegas etc. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

March 14th, 2004, 04:09 PM	#3
Berny Kellerer New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austria Posts: 6	Thanks David ! I read an article about EE, and saw some still frames showing this artificial sharpness. I really wonder how EE looks in motion: Are there any sample clips online where EE is really noticeable ? If no clips are available, could you explain me how it will look like ? Thanks again.

March 16th, 2004, 05:37 AM	#5
Berny Kellerer New Boot Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austria Posts: 6	Thank you for the link, David. I have a last question: What kind of Mac software can be used to down-convert the video ?