Shooting 60p at DVinfo.net

Ken Hodson · February 23rd, 2004, 11:26 PM

I am excited about trying out some shooting using the 480p mode. When AspectHD enables editing in this mode, will it be the first? Or is there another solution?

One of my fondest cinematic memories was during Expo86 where I saw a film projected at a high frame rate. I am guessing 48-60. The film was a tour of British Columbia in which you followed a red orb about the country side. The speed of the film created amazing motion detail and fluidity that made you feel as if you were dropping and banking with the orb. It was amazing. Seeing Attack of the Clones at IMAX made me realize how crappy 24fps is in heavy action scenes. The future of film is 60p digital projection. Can't wait to try out some action scenes with the HD10. Anyone work with 60p yet?
Ken

Geoff Pepos · February 24th, 2004, 04:47 AM

Ken,

Expo86 was also inspiring for me...even though I do recall that piece in vague. More so, I remember the art in that worlds fair...it was true multimedia...the humor and irony in the gray vehicles parading into the water...the miniature city where one looked into windows of tiny buildings and saw little video vignettes...the first mass use of high res digital audio. The environments created were varied and amazing...and mostly from the Canadians. The "theme" was transportation as I recall. And the USSR (as it was still then) and the US and Europe took the theme so literally...the display (and ever present naive arrogance) of "our" industrial objects...the cars and trains and rockets and all of that. The Canadian provinces took a less literal and more human(e) point of view...transportation of the spirit for lack of a better phrase. That event (as well as Digicon 84 also held in Vancouver and the Provincial Museum in Victoria) helped lead me into telling stories in motion. Thank you Canadians!

So, what does this all have to do with 60p? I don't want to be a victim of the thread police do I?

So much of what we experience in motion imaging is so relative...there is the registration issue with trad film projection. All of that judder reduces the perceived resolution of the images we see. Also, in film or TV, the distance related to the size of a projected and/or "displayed" image affects our perception of resolution...how much ambient light...the contrast ratio...the color...even our own eyes...many men are color blind...many woman are night blind...what I see is different from what my dogs or my horses see...but, they don't have pockets...so they don't matter in this case 'cause they can't afford to pay for a ticket, let alone change channels.

For a long time now in our "motion" pictures, temporal resolution has been fixed at either at 24fps (and "flashed" at us at 48 times a second) or at 60i...for us North Americans at least.

Film is "dreamy" and video is just a bit too real...are these truths or conventions?

I just spent a couple of weeks up in the wilds of Montana scouting out a location for a shoot this summer and it was "dream like" even more so than most films I've seen, even with my bare analog eyes. As far as I know, I don't believe that my eyes have a specific frame rate...or that my ears "sample" and are limited by the Nyquist law.

Hey, digital audio is moving into 96K+ sample rates...whether this is to sell more hardware/software/upgrades or not, I don't know for sure.

...why not try it in moving pictures...all the same...maybe let's start at...120fps (progressive of course...is there any other way?) or more. Combine these higher frame rates with high resolution and a "imagemaker" controlled "gamma" and composition and all of the rest like good stories and actors...who knows what we might find?

Why not...I mean...nobody will get killed in the process... Right?

G.

Daymon Hoffman · February 24th, 2004, 04:14 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Geoff Pepos : Ken,

...why not try it in moving pictures...all the same...maybe let's start at...120fps (progressive of course...is there any other way?) or more. Combine these higher frame rates with high resolution and a "imagemaker" controlled "gamma" and composition and all of the rest like good stories and actors...who knows what we might find?

Why not...I mean...nobody will get killed in the process... Right?

G. -->>>

a big "hell Yes" to this - from me. :D

Ken Hodson · February 24th, 2004, 06:26 PM

A good example a high frame film are those "theme rides". The ones that are moved about on hydraulic lift platform. I saw the James Brown music experience ride at the Seattle Rock museum. Similar to the many Universal pictures rides. While the ride tilts around, the perseption your eyes give you from the high frame rate amplifies the motion greatly. One scene in which you swoop about a street in which James and the band are playing was amazing. The closest you could come to being at the concert. The HD10 may go down in history as much for its 60p mode as its 720p.
Ken

Geoff Pepos · February 24th, 2004, 11:42 PM

Ken,

You are inspiring me. We're scheduled to shoot our horse sequences soon...well...as soon as the rain stops down here in SoCal...I thought I got away from that. ; ) (grew up in the Northwest and spent many a-happy-summer in the BC gulf waters.)

Will shoot some test 60p footage on the horse soon and maybe post something on our site as a WM9 file. We've had a lot of promising results in converting regular old grungy DV to HD 720p...I'm sure that the JVC SD 60p will up-rez nicely.

Take Care,

G.

Ken Hodson · February 26th, 2004, 02:29 PM

What are you using to uprez?
Ken

Geoff Pepos · February 26th, 2004, 08:30 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : What are you using to uprez?
Ken -->>>

After Effects.

G.

Ken Hodson · February 26th, 2004, 08:36 PM

Interesting. So what is your take on the final product comparing the de-interlaced uprezed DV footage with the HDV HD10 footage?
Ken

Geoff Pepos · February 26th, 2004, 08:50 PM

While I haven't seen it on a monitor larger than 19" in HD resolution, the DV footage up-rez'd is softer and with a bit of "weirdness" on horizontal lines...though we try to mitigate this with further processing. The color is good...and DV converted to progressive is a great improvement even at SD resolutions.

We have created SD dvd's (with the DV up-rez, downrezed again to SD) on our HD TV and it's better than the original DV. So, it seems to make sense even for SD productions to up-rez to HD, do processing and color correct and then bring it back to SD.

...as most current pro-audio is mastered at 96K+ and 24 bit (even if some or all of the source is at 44.1 16bit) and then it's down sampled and dithered to 16bit, 44.1K for CD.

G.

February 23rd, 2004, 11:26 PM	#1
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Shooting 60p I am excited about trying out some shooting using the 480p mode. When AspectHD enables editing in this mode, will it be the first? Or is there another solution? One of my fondest cinematic memories was during Expo86 where I saw a film projected at a high frame rate. I am guessing 48-60. The film was a tour of British Columbia in which you followed a red orb about the country side. The speed of the film created amazing motion detail and fluidity that made you feel as if you were dropping and banking with the orb. It was amazing. Seeing Attack of the Clones at IMAX made me realize how crappy 24fps is in heavy action scenes. The future of film is 60p digital projection. Can't wait to try out some action scenes with the HD10. Anyone work with 60p yet? Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

February 24th, 2004, 04:47 AM	#2
Geoff Pepos New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Agoura Hills, CA Posts: 19	Ken, Expo86 was also inspiring for me...even though I do recall that piece in vague. More so, I remember the art in that worlds fair...it was true multimedia...the humor and irony in the gray vehicles parading into the water...the miniature city where one looked into windows of tiny buildings and saw little video vignettes...the first mass use of high res digital audio. The environments created were varied and amazing...and mostly from the Canadians. The "theme" was transportation as I recall. And the USSR (as it was still then) and the US and Europe took the theme so literally...the display (and ever present naive arrogance) of "our" industrial objects...the cars and trains and rockets and all of that. The Canadian provinces took a less literal and more human(e) point of view...transportation of the spirit for lack of a better phrase. That event (as well as Digicon 84 also held in Vancouver and the Provincial Museum in Victoria) helped lead me into telling stories in motion. Thank you Canadians! So, what does this all have to do with 60p? I don't want to be a victim of the thread police do I? So much of what we experience in motion imaging is so relative...there is the registration issue with trad film projection. All of that judder reduces the perceived resolution of the images we see. Also, in film or TV, the distance related to the size of a projected and/or "displayed" image affects our perception of resolution...how much ambient light...the contrast ratio...the color...even our own eyes...many men are color blind...many woman are night blind...what I see is different from what my dogs or my horses see...but, they don't have pockets...so they don't matter in this case 'cause they can't afford to pay for a ticket, let alone change channels. For a long time now in our "motion" pictures, temporal resolution has been fixed at either at 24fps (and "flashed" at us at 48 times a second) or at 60i...for us North Americans at least. Film is "dreamy" and video is just a bit too real...are these truths or conventions? I just spent a couple of weeks up in the wilds of Montana scouting out a location for a shoot this summer and it was "dream like" even more so than most films I've seen, even with my bare analog eyes. As far as I know, I don't believe that my eyes have a specific frame rate...or that my ears "sample" and are limited by the Nyquist law. Hey, digital audio is moving into 96K+ sample rates...whether this is to sell more hardware/software/upgrades or not, I don't know for sure. ...why not try it in moving pictures...all the same...maybe let's start at...120fps (progressive of course...is there any other way?) or more. Combine these higher frame rates with high resolution and a "imagemaker" controlled "gamma" and composition and all of the rest like good stories and actors...who knows what we might find? Why not...I mean...nobody will get killed in the process... Right? G. __________________ Geoff Pepos Rhythm Films

February 24th, 2004, 04:14 PM	#3
Daymon Hoffman Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 267	<<<-- Originally posted by Geoff Pepos : Ken, ...why not try it in moving pictures...all the same...maybe let's start at...120fps (progressive of course...is there any other way?) or more. Combine these higher frame rates with high resolution and a "imagemaker" controlled "gamma" and composition and all of the rest like good stories and actors...who knows what we might find? Why not...I mean...nobody will get killed in the process... Right? G. -->>> a big "hell Yes" to this - from me. :D __________________ Welcome... to the real world!

February 24th, 2004, 06:26 PM	#4
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	A good example a high frame film are those "theme rides". The ones that are moved about on hydraulic lift platform. I saw the James Brown music experience ride at the Seattle Rock museum. Similar to the many Universal pictures rides. While the ride tilts around, the perseption your eyes give you from the high frame rate amplifies the motion greatly. One scene in which you swoop about a street in which James and the band are playing was amazing. The closest you could come to being at the concert. The HD10 may go down in history as much for its 60p mode as its 720p. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

February 24th, 2004, 11:42 PM	#5
Geoff Pepos New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Agoura Hills, CA Posts: 19	Ken, You are inspiring me. We're scheduled to shoot our horse sequences soon...well...as soon as the rain stops down here in SoCal...I thought I got away from that. ; ) (grew up in the Northwest and spent many a-happy-summer in the BC gulf waters.) Will shoot some test 60p footage on the horse soon and maybe post something on our site as a WM9 file. We've had a lot of promising results in converting regular old grungy DV to HD 720p...I'm sure that the JVC SD 60p will up-rez nicely. Take Care, G. __________________ Geoff Pepos Rhythm Films

February 26th, 2004, 02:29 PM	#6
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	What are you using to uprez? Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

February 26th, 2004, 08:30 PM	#7
Geoff Pepos New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Agoura Hills, CA Posts: 19	<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : What are you using to uprez? Ken -->>> After Effects. G. __________________ Geoff Pepos Rhythm Films

February 26th, 2004, 08:36 PM	#8
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Interesting. So what is your take on the final product comparing the de-interlaced uprezed DV footage with the HDV HD10 footage? Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

February 26th, 2004, 08:50 PM	#9
Geoff Pepos New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Agoura Hills, CA Posts: 19	While I haven't seen it on a monitor larger than 19" in HD resolution, the DV footage up-rez'd is softer and with a bit of "weirdness" on horizontal lines...though we try to mitigate this with further processing. The color is good...and DV converted to progressive is a great improvement even at SD resolutions. We have created SD dvd's (with the DV up-rez, downrezed again to SD) on our HD TV and it's better than the original DV. So, it seems to make sense even for SD productions to up-rez to HD, do processing and color correct and then bring it back to SD. ...as most current pro-audio is mastered at 96K+ and 24 bit (even if some or all of the source is at 44.1 16bit) and then it's down sampled and dithered to 16bit, 44.1K for CD. G. __________________ Geoff Pepos Rhythm Films