Ok, so has anyone ACTUALLY done a 35mm blow up from an HD10? at DVinfo.net

Anthony Moody · January 14th, 2004, 05:12 PM

We're about 2-4 months away from beginning production on a $400k feature. We're budgeted for one of the nicer HD packages...perhaps not the cinealta but still a very nice package.

Our DP has used the cinealta and various other pro HD gear, but not the HD10. Anyway, we're thinking about putting the camera package budget line toward a purchase of 1 or 2 HD10s instead, which would save us money. I know the HD10 does not have a 24p mode, and I know that 30p -> 24p conversions are supposed to be a bad source of motion artifacts...

BUT, all that said, has anyone here actually done a blow up to 35mm from the HD10? If so, what'd you see? How'd it look? I did a search here and found some folks who said they were going to do this, but I wasn't able to find any results...

Thanks in advance,
TM

James Ball · January 14th, 2004, 07:42 PM

http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm#HD-1

34. Can I use the JVC HD-1 to shoot hi-def and transfer to film?

No. The JVC's 16:9 HDTV (720p30) format is 30 frames/sec progressive-scan and cannot be converted to 24 frames/sec. (Normal interlaced NTSC is 60 fields/sec and is easily converted to 24, but 30P formats have only 30 motion samples per second and no smooth conversion to 24 is possible).

The other modes of the JVC are standard definition and offer no real advantages. Wait for the European version (720p25) if there will be one.

****************

I'd say that's just his opinion except that they are the #3 xfer house behind Swiss Effects and Sony Hirez center.

I would have thought the 60P mode on the JVC camera would have been a plus over 60i

But definately you can't shoot 720 30p and expect to make a transfer.

James Ball · January 14th, 2004, 08:11 PM

you can get the HD10A and a Kona SDI card and a laptop and strap it onto your camera to get 1080i 59.96.

then you will have NO problem with the xfer.

I have a film recorder that I built for this purpose. I've tried it out with uprez DV and it is excellent at least the = of 16super to 35mm blowup.

I got this from the guys at AJA.com

the HD10A is AJAs A/D converter.

The JVC JY- HD10U is Analog out (not sure if the GR-HD10U is different). We have tested and added updates to our HD10A ( hi-def analog to digital converter) to make it work with the JVC camera. We then tested the output of the HD10A into a Kona-HD (in 1080i 59.94) and it worked fine.

Heath McKnight · January 14th, 2004, 08:14 PM

For $400,000, I'd recommend shooting on a DVX100, higher-end HD or some other SD format, PAL or 24P.

heath

James Ball · January 14th, 2004, 08:18 PM

when you're talking about doing a real production then you can't seriously be considering a prototype camera.

if you're just doing an indy for "fun" great. but if it's for pay get the real camera.

I've seen blow-ups with the panasonic SDX- 900 that looked like it originated on film.

Don Berube · January 14th, 2004, 08:20 PM

Definitely take a look at what the SDX900 can do. Much larger capture and much more color detail.

- don

Heath McKnight · January 14th, 2004, 08:30 PM

I've heard so much great stuff about the DVX100 that we're probably gonna use it to shoot my next film, which will be uprezed to HD and probably 35 mm.

Otherwise, I would probably avoid the one-chip JVC, because even JVC admits that a 3-chip camera is better. But maybe if you're looking for something cool and different, you could do the uprez to 1080i 59.96, as explained by James Ball, then go to film.

I'd also recommend reading Jon Fordham's new review of the camera. We shot a short together, and his thoughts on the camera are interesting. Jon is a pro-level DP.

heath

James Ball · January 14th, 2004, 08:40 PM

I've shot out some test runs to film using footage on an AJD-210 though that I thought were better.

The real advantage though if you're going out to film is the 24P and being able to tell real time if you are panning too fast.

If you're inexperienced as a DP and you can't affort to rent the 900 then I'd 100% go with the DVX100

The thing I like about the AJD-210 (215 has firewire out) is that it is DVCPro so you have lower compression and a choice of lenses. These cameras were hot 4-5 years ago so the prices now are in the toilet even though they are solid 1/3" 3CCD cameras.

Another thing great about the DVCPro 25/50 on a PAYING shoot is that you won't have the problems with dropout etc. that you have with the miniDV format.

If you decide to go the DVX100 route I would definately pony up for the firestore or some other DTR solution to side-step the dropout problem.

My heart has sank more than once when I got back to the barn and found I had bad footage due to a dropout.

David Newman · January 14th, 2004, 08:52 PM

Converting to 1080i60 will not help going to 24p, as the signal is now effectively 1080p30. You might as well stick with 720p30 and process from there to avoid any interim scaling artifacts. Several users have experimented with PC based filters (like Twixtor) to convert 30p to 24p with surprisingly good results (I too have had go success with this tool.) So don't necessarily rule out 720p30 based on frame rate issue.

Basically you could use a HD10 or DXV100 or DV5000 or pxl2000 to shoot your film, all result in a completely different looks. Chose the look you want and go with that. Basically uprezed materials will always look uprezed, and footage with poor latitude will always have poor latitude. There will never be a camera that meet every need and look.

Heath McKnight · January 14th, 2004, 09:17 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Converting to 1080i60 will not help going to 24p, as the signal is now effectively 1080p30. You might as well stick with 720p30 and process from there to avoid any interim scaling artifacts. Several users have experimented with PC based filters (like Twixtor) to convert 30p to 24p with surprisingly good results (I too have had go success with this tool.) So don't necessarily rule out 720p30 based on frame rate issue.

Basically you could use a HD10 or DXV100 or DV5000 or pxl2000 to shoot your film, all result in a completely different looks. Chose the look you want and go with that. Basically uprezed materials will always look uprezed, and footage with poor latitude will always have poor latitude. There will never be a camera that meet every need and look. -->>>

ANNNNND, you can always have a free 1 minute test done from a film out place.

heath

Rob Belics · January 14th, 2004, 10:50 PM

Why are you blowing up to 35mm?

Anthony Moody · January 15th, 2004, 08:02 AM

Thanks so much for all the thoughts and replies. Great food for thought. Like I said originally, we're budgeted for a higher end HD package, and our DP has used them before. So, chances are that's the way we'll go. I got to thinking about the HD10 b/c I saw some clips (they were hosted by someone on the AVS forums if you guys want to look for them) and thought they looked pretty good all things considered. But I'd never shoot the film without having some sense of how the blow up would look in advance, hence my post. I like Heaths idea about the 1 minute sample...

As to why the blowup, we'll be taking it to markets/festivals.

Thanks again,
Tony

Rob Belics · January 15th, 2004, 09:04 AM

Have you budgeted $300 per minute for the blowup?

Anthony Moody · January 15th, 2004, 09:06 AM

I'll have to double check the budget (it's on another computer and I don't have a hard copy in front of me) but I want to say we have it budgeted at slightly less than that.

TM

Rob Belics · January 15th, 2004, 01:22 PM

I noticed a lot of people talking about transferring to film without realizing the cost involved. That $300 figure might be tops. But when you add that in, sometimes it's cheaper to start with film and get a more flexible format for foreign, dvd and theatre distribution as well as a better look.

January 14th, 2004, 05:12 PM	#1
Anthony Moody New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 6	Ok, so has anyone ACTUALLY done a 35mm blow up from an HD10? We're about 2-4 months away from beginning production on a $400k feature. We're budgeted for one of the nicer HD packages...perhaps not the cinealta but still a very nice package. Our DP has used the cinealta and various other pro HD gear, but not the HD10. Anyway, we're thinking about putting the camera package budget line toward a purchase of 1 or 2 HD10s instead, which would save us money. I know the HD10 does not have a 24p mode, and I know that 30p -> 24p conversions are supposed to be a bad source of motion artifacts... BUT, all that said, has anyone here actually done a blow up to 35mm from the HD10? If so, what'd you see? How'd it look? I did a search here and found some folks who said they were going to do this, but I wasn't able to find any results... Thanks in advance, TM

January 14th, 2004, 08:14 PM	#4
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	For $400,000, I'd recommend shooting on a DVX100, higher-end HD or some other SD format, PAL or 24P. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 14th, 2004, 08:18 PM	#5
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	that or get into the camera business when you're talking about doing a real production then you can't seriously be considering a prototype camera. if you're just doing an indy for "fun" great. but if it's for pay get the real camera. I've seen blow-ups with the panasonic SDX- 900 that looked like it originated on film.

January 14th, 2004, 08:20 PM	#6
Don Berube Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Boston, MA (travel frequently) Posts: 837	Definitely take a look at what the SDX900 can do. Much larger capture and much more color detail. - don __________________ DONALD BERUBE - noisybrain. Productions, LLC Director Of Photography/ Producer/ Consultant http://noisybrain.com/donbio.html CREATE and NETWORK with http://www.bosfcpug.org and also http://fcpugnetwork.org

January 14th, 2004, 08:30 PM	#7
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I've heard so much great stuff about the DVX100 that we're probably gonna use it to shoot my next film, which will be uprezed to HD and probably 35 mm. Otherwise, I would probably avoid the one-chip JVC, because even JVC admits that a 3-chip camera is better. But maybe if you're looking for something cool and different, you could do the uprez to 1080i 59.96, as explained by James Ball, then go to film. I'd also recommend reading Jon Fordham's new review of the camera. We shot a short together, and his thoughts on the camera are interesting. Jon is a pro-level DP. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 14th, 2004, 07:42 PM	#2
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	http://www.dvfilm.com/faq.htm#HD-1 34. Can I use the JVC HD-1 to shoot hi-def and transfer to film? No. The JVC's 16:9 HDTV (720p30) format is 30 frames/sec progressive-scan and cannot be converted to 24 frames/sec. (Normal interlaced NTSC is 60 fields/sec and is easily converted to 24, but 30P formats have only 30 motion samples per second and no smooth conversion to 24 is possible). The other modes of the JVC are standard definition and offer no real advantages. Wait for the European version (720p25) if there will be one. **************** I'd say that's just his opinion except that they are the #3 xfer house behind Swiss Effects and Sony Hirez center. I would have thought the 60P mode on the JVC camera would have been a plus over 60i But definately you can't shoot 720 30p and expect to make a transfer.

January 14th, 2004, 08:11 PM	#3
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	if you're willing to spend $6000 you can get the HD10A and a Kona SDI card and a laptop and strap it onto your camera to get 1080i 59.96. then you will have NO problem with the xfer. I have a film recorder that I built for this purpose. I've tried it out with uprez DV and it is excellent at least the = of 16super to 35mm blowup. I got this from the guys at AJA.com the HD10A is AJAs A/D converter. The JVC JY- HD10U is Analog out (not sure if the GR-HD10U is different). We have tested and added updates to our HD10A ( hi-def analog to digital converter) to make it work with the JVC camera. We then tested the output of the HD10A into a Kona-HD (in 1080i 59.94) and it worked fine.

January 14th, 2004, 08:40 PM	#8
James Ball Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Sulphur, LA Posts: 61	nothing wrong with the DVX100 I've shot out some test runs to film using footage on an AJD-210 though that I thought were better. The real advantage though if you're going out to film is the 24P and being able to tell real time if you are panning too fast. If you're inexperienced as a DP and you can't affort to rent the 900 then I'd 100% go with the DVX100 The thing I like about the AJD-210 (215 has firewire out) is that it is DVCPro so you have lower compression and a choice of lenses. These cameras were hot 4-5 years ago so the prices now are in the toilet even though they are solid 1/3" 3CCD cameras. Another thing great about the DVCPro 25/50 on a PAYING shoot is that you won't have the problems with dropout etc. that you have with the miniDV format. If you decide to go the DVX100 route I would definately pony up for the firestore or some other DTR solution to side-step the dropout problem. My heart has sank more than once when I got back to the barn and found I had bad footage due to a dropout.

January 14th, 2004, 08:52 PM	#9
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Converting to 1080i60 will not help going to 24p, as the signal is now effectively 1080p30. You might as well stick with 720p30 and process from there to avoid any interim scaling artifacts. Several users have experimented with PC based filters (like Twixtor) to convert 30p to 24p with surprisingly good results (I too have had go success with this tool.) So don't necessarily rule out 720p30 based on frame rate issue. Basically you could use a HD10 or DXV100 or DV5000 or pxl2000 to shoot your film, all result in a completely different looks. Chose the look you want and go with that. Basically uprezed materials will always look uprezed, and footage with poor latitude will always have poor latitude. There will never be a camera that meet every need and look. __________________ David Newman -- web: www.gopro.com blog: cineform.blogspot.com -- twitter: twitter.com/David_Newman

January 14th, 2004, 09:17 PM	#10
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by David Newman : Converting to 1080i60 will not help going to 24p, as the signal is now effectively 1080p30. You might as well stick with 720p30 and process from there to avoid any interim scaling artifacts. Several users have experimented with PC based filters (like Twixtor) to convert 30p to 24p with surprisingly good results (I too have had go success with this tool.) So don't necessarily rule out 720p30 based on frame rate issue. Basically you could use a HD10 or DXV100 or DV5000 or pxl2000 to shoot your film, all result in a completely different looks. Chose the look you want and go with that. Basically uprezed materials will always look uprezed, and footage with poor latitude will always have poor latitude. There will never be a camera that meet every need and look. -->>> ANNNNND, you can always have a free 1 minute test done from a film out place. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

January 14th, 2004, 10:50 PM	#11
Rob Belics Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 581	Why are you blowing up to 35mm?

January 15th, 2004, 08:02 AM	#12
Anthony Moody New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 6	Thanks so much for all the thoughts and replies. Great food for thought. Like I said originally, we're budgeted for a higher end HD package, and our DP has used them before. So, chances are that's the way we'll go. I got to thinking about the HD10 b/c I saw some clips (they were hosted by someone on the AVS forums if you guys want to look for them) and thought they looked pretty good all things considered. But I'd never shoot the film without having some sense of how the blow up would look in advance, hence my post. I like Heaths idea about the 1 minute sample... As to why the blowup, we'll be taking it to markets/festivals. Thanks again, Tony

January 15th, 2004, 09:04 AM	#13
Rob Belics Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 581	Have you budgeted $300 per minute for the blowup?

January 15th, 2004, 09:06 AM	#14
Anthony Moody New Boot Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 6	I'll have to double check the budget (it's on another computer and I don't have a hard copy in front of me) but I want to say we have it budgeted at slightly less than that. TM

January 15th, 2004, 01:22 PM	#15
Rob Belics Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: St. Louis, MO Posts: 581	I noticed a lot of people talking about transferring to film without realizing the cost involved. That $300 figure might be tops. But when you add that in, sometimes it's cheaper to start with film and get a more flexible format for foreign, dvd and theatre distribution as well as a better look.