Differencd between Gr HD1 & Gr PD1 at DVinfo.net

Ben Gurvich · December 20th, 2003, 06:25 AM

Hi all,

Could someone please explain the different between these cameras apart from the fact one is NTSC and one is PAL. I am from Australia and JVC has only released the PD1. Instead of calling this a High Definition they call it extended definition.
The Rez is 1280 x 659 why this odd number why not 720.

PAL is better than NTSC but is The GD better than the PD?

I would appreciate if someone could post clips of the two so we can see the difference.

Cheers
Ben Gurvich

Ken Hodson · December 20th, 2003, 10:25 AM

This is what I have found out from a review,

"a PS50 mode that shoots 50 progressive-scan frames at a resolution of 720 by 576, and the PS25 mode, which captures 25 progressive scan frames at 1,280 by 659 pixels. To make this last mode compatible with standard displays and editing systems, it’s down-sampled to 720 by 576, but the results are still extremely impressive."

http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/...9118144,00.htm

Ben Gurvich · December 20th, 2003, 10:31 AM

Very Interesting Ken.

So does this eman all Pal HDV will be 576?

Also can we please get some clips up to compare to 2.

( i would myself but i dont have a spare 6k lyring around)

also the article says its downsalmped to 720 by 576 to make it compatible with exisitng displays. Is the HD1 downsampled to 720x486 (or whichever ntsc is) to achieve the same result?

Ken Hodson · December 20th, 2003, 11:12 AM

It sort of means there is no PAL HDV.
Everything out of this cam is in PAL SD resolution.
The one advantage, as stated, is the 25p image is downsampled from 720p resolution (or there abouts) with all the work being done in the cam. This is to enable broader consumer adoption, as everyone can use their SD displays.
This deliberate exclusion of a full HD mode @ 25p seems to say that JVC has a 24p capable unit that is ready to roll someday soon. Just a gut feeling though.
Ken

Barry Green · December 20th, 2003, 05:04 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : It sort of means there is no PAL HDV.-->>>

Technically there should be no such thing as PAL HDV, just as there shouldn't be NTSC HDV -- HD is HD, which is neither PAL nor NTSC.

But, furthermore, the JVC cameras are far from definitive when it comes to the proposed HDV format. HDV clearly calls for 1080/50i, 1080/60i, 720/30p and 720/25p.

Ken Hodson · December 20th, 2003, 06:18 PM

Regardless, it is very clear they are avoiding any 720p 25fps. This is a market they do not want this cam to get into, for whatever reason. They either do not want the market share or they have a product that will soon be tailor made for that market share, and will provide them with a higher profit margin.
Ken

Ben Gurvich · December 21st, 2003, 12:50 AM

Does HDV take its color system from NTSC or PAL.
PAL is better but looks more like real life, NTSC looks unlike life and therefore sorta has more of a mystical look like film.

Although i guest if you guys only use NTSC you probably not familiar with what im talking about.

Heath McKnight · December 21st, 2003, 11:53 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : This deliberate exclusion of a full HD mode @ 25p seems to say that JVC has a 24p capable unit that is ready to roll someday soon. Just a gut feeling though.
Ken -->>>

I don't know Ken, I don't think they do. I think we're maybe two NABs away from that (so if we see it, maybe NAB 2005).

I might be wrong...

hwm

Graeme Nattress · December 21st, 2003, 12:16 PM

Ben, PAL only has better looking colour in analogue TV broadcasts over NTSC TV broadcasts. While the colour is kept digitally, both PAL and NTSC look as good as each other in terms of colour. Also, remember, that the different colour samplings like 4:1:1, 4:2:0 etc are format dependent, not standard (PAL or NTSC) dependent. I lived most of my life in England (PAL), an am now living in Canada(NTSC), and have run dual standard video equipment in both countries.

Graeme

Anhar Miah · December 21st, 2003, 12:21 PM

According to Camcorder User(TM) DEC 2003

The PD1 does not have High Definnition "beacsue of poor acceptability of HD in the UK"

Although the PD1 has "hi-res" and "extended res" modes these are not HD so beware.

I'm still waiting for the PAL HD1/10u if it will ever come that is, if anyone has any news on this, i would be very greatful.

Ken Hodson · December 21st, 2003, 01:21 PM

The PAL cam with no HD is deliberate. Why would JVC do this, one might ask? I don't believe for a minute JVC is going to sit on their ass for 2 years, in regards to thid tech.
Enable HD in PAL (or give us 24p) and enable full manual controll, and the cam is done. Heck, not much more then a firmware upgrade is needed to make this an independent film "dream cam". If it takes them 2 years I will be convinced the uber lords controll the whole cam industry :>(
Ken

Ben Gurvich · December 21st, 2003, 10:27 PM

Yeah i think theyre being a bit short sighted.
This is their chance - as soon as Canon birng out the xl1 hd or Panasonic bring out the HDVX100, its going to be like, SEE YA.
If your gonna spend some serious dosh on a camera your probably inclined to spend a bit more to get one of these, if and when they come out.

Ben Gurvich · December 21st, 2003, 10:32 PM

<<<-- , both PAL and NTSC look as good as each other in terms of colour.
Graeme -->>>

In your opinion does HDV look more like the looks of realy good PAL (how we see things) or NTSC (a tiny bit diffferent than how we see things)

Cheers
Ben Gurvich

Graeme Nattress · December 22nd, 2003, 05:28 AM

As I said, in digital video PAL and NTSC look identical in terms of colour. NTSC doesn't broadcast as well, or look as good on analogue video, but as long as they're digital you can't tell them apart.

The colour on an HDV camera should look the same wether it's PAL or NTSC.

Graeme

Ben Gurvich · December 22nd, 2003, 07:19 AM

Greame, I probaly didnt make myself clear enough.

My question is do you think the HDV color system resembles more closely , analog Pal or NTSC.

Its gotta look more like one than the other. If it looks more like PAL color system, then it means it would look even more different to NTSC analog people.

Cheers
Ben Gurvich

December 20th, 2003, 06:25 AM	#1
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	Difference between Gr HD1 & Gr PD1 Hi all, Could someone please explain the different between these cameras apart from the fact one is NTSC and one is PAL. I am from Australia and JVC has only released the PD1. Instead of calling this a High Definition they call it extended definition. The Rez is 1280 x 659 why this odd number why not 720. PAL is better than NTSC but is The GD better than the PD? I would appreciate if someone could post clips of the two so we can see the difference. Cheers Ben Gurvich

December 20th, 2003, 10:25 AM	#2
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	This is what I have found out from a review, "a PS50 mode that shoots 50 progressive-scan frames at a resolution of 720 by 576, and the PS25 mode, which captures 25 progressive scan frames at 1,280 by 659 pixels. To make this last mode compatible with standard displays and editing systems, it’s down-sampled to 720 by 576, but the results are still extremely impressive." http://reviews.zdnet.co.uk/hardware/...9118144,00.htm __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 20th, 2003, 11:12 AM	#4
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	It sort of means there is no PAL HDV. Everything out of this cam is in PAL SD resolution. The one advantage, as stated, is the 25p image is downsampled from 720p resolution (or there abouts) with all the work being done in the cam. This is to enable broader consumer adoption, as everyone can use their SD displays. This deliberate exclusion of a full HD mode @ 25p seems to say that JVC has a 24p capable unit that is ready to roll someday soon. Just a gut feeling though. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 20th, 2003, 06:18 PM	#6
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Regardless, it is very clear they are avoiding any 720p 25fps. This is a market they do not want this cam to get into, for whatever reason. They either do not want the market share or they have a product that will soon be tailor made for that market share, and will provide them with a higher profit margin. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 21st, 2003, 12:50 AM	#7
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	HDV looks like... Does HDV take its color system from NTSC or PAL. PAL is better but looks more like real life, NTSC looks unlike life and therefore sorta has more of a mystical look like film. Although i guest if you guys only use NTSC you probably not familiar with what im talking about.

December 20th, 2003, 10:31 AM	#3
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	Very Interesting Ken. So does this eman all Pal HDV will be 576? Also can we please get some clips up to compare to 2. ( i would myself but i dont have a spare 6k lyring around) also the article says its downsalmped to 720 by 576 to make it compatible with exisitng displays. Is the HD1 downsampled to 720x486 (or whichever ntsc is) to achieve the same result?

December 20th, 2003, 05:04 PM	#5
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : It sort of means there is no PAL HDV.-->>> Technically there should be no such thing as PAL HDV, just as there shouldn't be NTSC HDV -- HD is HD, which is neither PAL nor NTSC. But, furthermore, the JVC cameras are far from definitive when it comes to the proposed HDV format. HDV clearly calls for 1080/50i, 1080/60i, 720/30p and 720/25p.

December 21st, 2003, 11:53 AM	#8
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : This deliberate exclusion of a full HD mode @ 25p seems to say that JVC has a 24p capable unit that is ready to roll someday soon. Just a gut feeling though. Ken -->>> I don't know Ken, I don't think they do. I think we're maybe two NABs away from that (so if we see it, maybe NAB 2005). I might be wrong... hwm __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

December 21st, 2003, 12:16 PM	#9
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	Ben, PAL only has better looking colour in analogue TV broadcasts over NTSC TV broadcasts. While the colour is kept digitally, both PAL and NTSC look as good as each other in terms of colour. Also, remember, that the different colour samplings like 4:1:1, 4:2:0 etc are format dependent, not standard (PAL or NTSC) dependent. I lived most of my life in England (PAL), an am now living in Canada(NTSC), and have run dual standard video equipment in both countries. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

December 21st, 2003, 12:21 PM	#10
Anhar Miah Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: United Kindom, England Posts: 290	According to Camcorder User(TM) DEC 2003 The PD1 does not have High Definnition "beacsue of poor acceptability of HD in the UK" Although the PD1 has "hi-res" and "extended res" modes these are not HD so beware. I'm still waiting for the PAL HD1/10u if it will ever come that is, if anyone has any news on this, i would be very greatful.

December 21st, 2003, 01:21 PM	#11
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	The PAL cam with no HD is deliberate. Why would JVC do this, one might ask? I don't believe for a minute JVC is going to sit on their ass for 2 years, in regards to thid tech. Enable HD in PAL (or give us 24p) and enable full manual controll, and the cam is done. Heck, not much more then a firmware upgrade is needed to make this an independent film "dream cam". If it takes them 2 years I will be convinced the uber lords controll the whole cam industry :>( Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 21st, 2003, 10:27 PM	#12
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	Yeah i think theyre being a bit short sighted. This is their chance - as soon as Canon birng out the xl1 hd or Panasonic bring out the HDVX100, its going to be like, SEE YA. If your gonna spend some serious dosh on a camera your probably inclined to spend a bit more to get one of these, if and when they come out.

December 21st, 2003, 10:32 PM	#13
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	<<<-- , both PAL and NTSC look as good as each other in terms of colour. Graeme -->>> In your opinion does HDV look more like the looks of realy good PAL (how we see things) or NTSC (a tiny bit diffferent than how we see things) Cheers Ben Gurvich

December 22nd, 2003, 05:28 AM	#14
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	As I said, in digital video PAL and NTSC look identical in terms of colour. NTSC doesn't broadcast as well, or look as good on analogue video, but as long as they're digital you can't tell them apart. The colour on an HDV camera should look the same wether it's PAL or NTSC. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

December 22nd, 2003, 07:19 AM	#15
Ben Gurvich Major Player Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 329	Greame, I probaly didnt make myself clear enough. My question is do you think the HDV color system resembles more closely , analog Pal or NTSC. Its gotta look more like one than the other. If it looks more like PAL color system, then it means it would look even more different to NTSC analog people. Cheers Ben Gurvich