JVC Contradictions at DVinfo.net

Glenn Gipson · November 21st, 2003, 09:40 AM

When the HD1 and HD10 first came out, JVC was saying that these cameras were strictly intended for “home” use, hence why the camera could not run at 25p or 24p. So now I open up DV magazine and see a JVC ad promoting the JVC HD Cam as a tool for movie makers, visa the JVC HD Road show for movie makers. What gives? I would buy this camera, because I actually like the image. However, I’m not going to lock my movies out of the PAL or theatrical markets by shooting on 30p. At one point I was warm to the idea of shooting with this camera due to the Landmark Theater digital projection deal, but after a while I came to the conclusion that it would be a bad financial investment to shoot with this cam. Do others feel the same way?

Barry Green · November 21st, 2003, 11:35 AM

Yes. I mean, people kept talking about Landmark, but Landmark has, what, around 150 digital theaters in the country? And there are something like 20,000 movie screens in this country? That means that by shooting 30P you're locking yourself out of 99.9% of the potential market.

And something like 70% of the world is PAL...

If it was five years from now and digital projection and HD were universal, it'd be a different story. But of course five years from now the follow-up camera should be out, offering true manual controls and solving all the gripes about the current one.

For moviemaking the HD1/HD10 are a "pass". Wait for the next one, hopefully with 25P or 1080/60i or 50i support.

Louis Grimaldo · November 21st, 2003, 01:05 PM

I prefer the image of the HD10u over any of the other SD cameras including the DVX100. Transferring to Film is just not a realistic option for most of us low budget filmmakers. If you don't have a famous actor in your movie then the chances of a theatrical distribution is very slim indeed. Not being able to go to PAL is the issue that really worries me. When I go for video distribution not being able to go to the PAL market will really limit my options. Is there any way to get 30p to 25p?

Chris Hurd · November 21st, 2003, 01:49 PM

How the manufacturer positions the camera, and how people use it, are often entirely separate things. For instance, the Canon XL1S is strictly a *consumer* item and is marketed by their consumer video division. And yet, people use it in a professional capacity all the time. Just because JVC says their cams are strictly for home use, doesn't stop anybody from doing what they want with it, such as commercial shoots, theatrical distrib., etc.

Glenn Gipson · November 21st, 2003, 03:56 PM

I hear you Chris, but I just find it hard to believe that JVC, coming out with the first sub 4k HD camera, couldn't forsee that movie makers would want to use this camera to.

Heath McKnight · November 21st, 2003, 04:43 PM

Because they sold a ton of the cameras to indie filmmakers. And they weren't expecting to sell that many cameras to begin with. Esp. not to indie filmmakers. Hence the change in filmmaking.

I had to shoot my latest film on an XL-1 because the HD10 was in NYC. Of course, now I'm cropping in FCP 3 to do "poorman's letterboxing," but I wish I had the HD10. But that's life. So, as a filmmaker, I now prefer the HD10 to anything else. And I don't go to film, because of the costs.

heath

Martin Munthe · November 21st, 2003, 05:40 PM

I'm very excited about this camera for independent filmmaking too but I live in europe where the JVC is limited to 576p. For theatrical distribution I would choose NOT to go out to film if I have a choice. I have still to see a 35mm projection that looks better than a digital quality projection if the the material is of digital origin.

Stephen L. Minor · November 23rd, 2003, 07:34 PM

The people will always decide in situations like this. If filmmakers are using the camera, and people want to see their films then theater's or whoever will find away to show it.

Furthermore, there are digital projectors for screening video in movie theaters. Because 99.999% of the theaters will never screen anything other than film (or whatever video format the country has) they only have film projectors. But, the projectors do exist and can be installed. Of course there not set up to do it right now, who would refit their moviehouse for cameras that just came out? Or, wouldn't even have been out, at the time they needed to begin, for the theaters to have them by now.

Heath McKnight · November 24th, 2003, 12:36 AM

As a digital filmmaker, I run into the non-film prejudice. I really dislike snooty, film using directors who say my stuff isn't totally great because we shot it on an XL-1, and not 16 mm. But dem da brakes...

Of course I DON'T mean film-using directors are snooty. Just certain ones that have shot on film. Just to clarify!

heath

Chris Hurd · November 24th, 2003, 11:25 AM

In the long run, *content* above all else, is king.

Glenn Gipson · November 24th, 2003, 12:55 PM

Chris, I agree...to so some extent. I mean, even if one does a great movie on the JVC HD Cam, their content will be distorted by the motion problems when going to PAL, if they find a way to go to PAL at all.

Ken Hodson · November 24th, 2003, 01:31 PM

If you content is in high enough demmand, a transfer can be done. Fields Kit and Magicbullet combined with Twixtor can get the job done. As well if one really does a great movie on their HD10 then a distributor will have proprietary systems for conversion.
The bottom line?
Worry about making the flick.

Glenn Gipson · November 24th, 2003, 01:39 PM

There is a guy over at another site who claims to have converted 30p to 24p,

Check it out

http://www.DVXuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/Y...num=1068237783

Chris Hurd · November 24th, 2003, 03:20 PM

Glenn, that's not just "a guy," that's Clayton Farr, who is a member here as well.

Kenn Christenson · November 24th, 2003, 03:58 PM

By far the cleanest conversion from 30p to 24p, I've seen, is made through using Revision fx's Twixtor. Anyone interested in this type of conversion should check out the demo version of the plugin at: revisionfx.com.

November 21st, 2003, 09:40 AM	#1
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	JVC Contradictions When the HD1 and HD10 first came out, JVC was saying that these cameras were strictly intended for “home” use, hence why the camera could not run at 25p or 24p. So now I open up DV magazine and see a JVC ad promoting the JVC HD Cam as a tool for movie makers, visa the JVC HD Road show for movie makers. What gives? I would buy this camera, because I actually like the image. However, I’m not going to lock my movies out of the PAL or theatrical markets by shooting on 30p. At one point I was warm to the idea of shooting with this camera due to the Landmark Theater digital projection deal, but after a while I came to the conclusion that it would be a bad financial investment to shoot with this cam. Do others feel the same way?

November 21st, 2003, 01:49 PM	#4
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	How the manufacturer positions the camera, and how people use it, are often entirely separate things. For instance, the Canon XL1S is strictly a consumer item and is marketed by their consumer video division. And yet, people use it in a professional capacity all the time. Just because JVC says their cams are strictly for home use, doesn't stop anybody from doing what they want with it, such as commercial shoots, theatrical distrib., etc. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 21st, 2003, 04:43 PM	#6
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Because they sold a ton of the cameras to indie filmmakers. And they weren't expecting to sell that many cameras to begin with. Esp. not to indie filmmakers. Hence the change in filmmaking. I had to shoot my latest film on an XL-1 because the HD10 was in NYC. Of course, now I'm cropping in FCP 3 to do "poorman's letterboxing," but I wish I had the HD10. But that's life. So, as a filmmaker, I now prefer the HD10 to anything else. And I don't go to film, because of the costs. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

November 21st, 2003, 05:40 PM	#7
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	I'm very excited about this camera for independent filmmaking too but I live in europe where the JVC is limited to 576p. For theatrical distribution I would choose NOT to go out to film if I have a choice. I have still to see a 35mm projection that looks better than a digital quality projection if the the material is of digital origin. __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

November 23rd, 2003, 07:34 PM	#8
Stephen L. Minor Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: L.A., CA Posts: 35	The people will always decide in situations like this. If filmmakers are using the camera, and people want to see their films then theater's or whoever will find away to show it. Furthermore, there are digital projectors for screening video in movie theaters. Because 99.999% of the theaters will never screen anything other than film (or whatever video format the country has) they only have film projectors. But, the projectors do exist and can be installed. Of course there not set up to do it right now, who would refit their moviehouse for cameras that just came out? Or, wouldn't even have been out, at the time they needed to begin, for the theaters to have them by now. __________________ -S

November 21st, 2003, 11:35 AM	#2
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Yes. I mean, people kept talking about Landmark, but Landmark has, what, around 150 digital theaters in the country? And there are something like 20,000 movie screens in this country? That means that by shooting 30P you're locking yourself out of 99.9% of the potential market. And something like 70% of the world is PAL... If it was five years from now and digital projection and HD were universal, it'd be a different story. But of course five years from now the follow-up camera should be out, offering true manual controls and solving all the gripes about the current one. For moviemaking the HD1/HD10 are a "pass". Wait for the next one, hopefully with 25P or 1080/60i or 50i support.

November 21st, 2003, 01:05 PM	#3
Louis Grimaldo Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tampa Posts: 26	I prefer the image of the HD10u over any of the other SD cameras including the DVX100. Transferring to Film is just not a realistic option for most of us low budget filmmakers. If you don't have a famous actor in your movie then the chances of a theatrical distribution is very slim indeed. Not being able to go to PAL is the issue that really worries me. When I go for video distribution not being able to go to the PAL market will really limit my options. Is there any way to get 30p to 25p?

November 21st, 2003, 03:56 PM	#5
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	I hear you Chris, but I just find it hard to believe that JVC, coming out with the first sub 4k HD camera, couldn't forsee that movie makers would want to use this camera to.

November 24th, 2003, 12:36 AM	#9
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	As a digital filmmaker, I run into the non-film prejudice. I really dislike snooty, film using directors who say my stuff isn't totally great because we shot it on an XL-1, and not 16 mm. But dem da brakes... Of course I DON'T mean film-using directors are snooty. Just certain ones that have shot on film. Just to clarify! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

November 24th, 2003, 11:25 AM	#10
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	In the long run, content above all else, is king. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 24th, 2003, 12:55 PM	#11
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	Chris, I agree...to so some extent. I mean, even if one does a great movie on the JVC HD Cam, their content will be distorted by the motion problems when going to PAL, if they find a way to go to PAL at all.

November 24th, 2003, 01:31 PM	#12
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	If you content is in high enough demmand, a transfer can be done. Fields Kit and Magicbullet combined with Twixtor can get the job done. As well if one really does a great movie on their HD10 then a distributor will have proprietary systems for conversion. The bottom line? Worry about making the flick. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

November 24th, 2003, 01:39 PM	#13
Glenn Gipson Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Plainfield, New Jersey Posts: 927	There is a guy over at another site who claims to have converted 30p to 24p, Check it out http://www.DVXuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX/Y...num=1068237783

November 24th, 2003, 03:20 PM	#14
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Glenn, that's not just "a guy," that's Clayton Farr, who is a member here as well. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 24th, 2003, 03:58 PM	#15
Kenn Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Medford Oregon Posts: 152	By far the cleanest conversion from 30p to 24p, I've seen, is made through using Revision fx's Twixtor. Anyone interested in this type of conversion should check out the demo version of the plugin at: revisionfx.com.