Why do people complain about this camera? Look at the incredible footage! at DVinfo.net

David Gomez · November 11th, 2003, 11:35 PM

Look at these incredible videos....

http://www.ne.jp/asahi/smaeda/12/wm9/wm9-8/wm9-8-1.htm

Huge files, 200 MB, Cable modem / DSL users only , each file took me close to half an hour. Footage shot with an HD1.

Maybe I am still an amateur at this but please tell me what's wrong with the footage in those clips? Can the other 3 CCD DV camcorders come even close to that quality? No, I do not work for JVC.

You need Windows Media 9.

Chris Hurd · November 11th, 2003, 11:48 PM

In the right hands, it can produce some exceptionally beautiful video, no doubt about that.

The most legitimate complaint I've seen so far is the lack of a full manual shooting mode. There's only aperture priority or shutter priority, but no way to manually control both aperture and shutter at the same time.

Yang Wen · November 11th, 2003, 11:59 PM

Well I'd have to say that those footages are not very stirring. The sky is consistently blown out, while the foreground subjects are dark in the very same frame. I perferred much more latittude. I know some ppl here are partial to subdued colors, but these clips' colors are too muddy looking for me (The preverbial 1 CCDesque look) and definitely lacks when compared to 3CCD cams. So sum it up, the resolution is nice, but the color is not.

Mike Eby · November 12th, 2003, 12:02 AM

Here is something I put together shot with the HD1.

http://www.advancedcomputerdesigns.com/flowers2.wmv

I been playing around with brightness filter in post and so far very happy with the results.

Mike

David Gomez · November 12th, 2003, 12:44 AM

Awesome footage!

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Eby : Here is something I put together shot with the HD1.

http://www.advancedcomputerdesigns.com/flowers2.wmv

I been playing around with brightness filter in post and so far very happy with the results.

Mike -->>>

Les Dit · November 12th, 2003, 04:49 AM

Thanks for the nice example clip!
I noticed at about 38 sec into the clip, the purple flowers, the black edging was more pronounced in the up-down direction, vs the side to side direction. Or is that the flower, did it really have a black line around the outer edge like that ?
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Eby : Here is something I put together shot with the HD1.

http://www.advancedcomputerdesigns.com/flowers2.wmv

I been playing around with brightness filter in post and so far very happy with the results.

Mike -->>>

Eric Bilodeau · November 12th, 2003, 06:17 PM

There are also HD10 clips over here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=14422

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=11460

Mike's HD1 clips are among the best HD1's I've seen, they are very good.

Mike Eby · November 12th, 2003, 07:27 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit : Thanks for the nice example clip!
I noticed at about 38 sec into the clip, the purple flowers, the black edging was more pronounced in the up-down direction, vs the side to side direction. Or is that the flower, did it really have a black line around the outer edge like that ?
-Les -->>>

Yep Les that the EE everyone complains about. The high contrast conditions seem to really make it show up.

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau :Mike's HD1 clips are among the best HD1's I've seen, they are very good. -->>>

Thanks Eric!

The EE DOES bother me and if I was trying to make money with my camera it would not be acceptable. I just don't understand the logic of adding the EE. The weird thing is it seems so show more on some displays than others. I would really like to see how a HD10 compares under exactly the same conditions.

Mike

Troy Lamont · November 13th, 2003, 11:58 AM

Quote:

he sky is consistently blown out, while the foreground subjects are dark in the very same frame. I perferred much more latittude.

I'd have to agree here. I seems like whoever shot these just opened the box and ran with it. Lots of blown out whites and the conversion to WM9 introduced a whole hoard of compression artifacts and made any EE stand out more pronounced.

These are not close to some of the better scenes that I've seen (no pun intended :)). Paul has shot some great scenes as well as Mike.

Mike's WM9 Vette clip is a nice example of WM9 encoding.

Troy

Barry Green · November 13th, 2003, 04:39 PM

David, to answer your original post, there are two types of people who complain about this camera: those who haven't used it, and those who have.

Those who haven't used it are whining fools, complaining about the theoretical limitations of a 1-CCD system or griping about MPEG-2, rather than just giving it a shot and seeing what it can do. Practice trumps theory every time.

Those who HAVE used it, complain about the consumer form factor -- the absurd limitations put on something that's supposed to be a professional camera (the HD10, not the HD1). When you get it to work for you, under controlled conditions, you don't hear ANY complaining -- it's capable of some incredible results, especially when you factor in the price. But if you step outside of its "happy zone", it can be a frustrating and trying experience to try to get usable footage from it.

If JVC solves those limitations, (perhaps by stuffing HDV circuitry in their excellent DV5000U camera body) then they will sell a bazillion of them. HDV is very promising -- but the current camera is quite limited, that's all. Stay tuned, things may get very interesting very soon!

Eric Bilodeau · November 13th, 2003, 04:59 PM

Quite an exact affirmation Barry, it sums up very well what we are facing here. Good to see I'm not alone thinking that...

Peter Robert · November 13th, 2003, 09:05 PM

The footages donwloaded from Japanese site looks good only when the camera is static. Whenever it tilts or pans, picture is blurred. It doesn't happen to m2t footage but only to wmp9 format.

I did the same test with the footage shot by my hd1. The result is the same. I really hate the blurred picture. My preference is : Not encode m2t file to wmp9 format. I keep all m2t in d-vhs tape and wait until blue laser disc comes.

Les Dit · November 14th, 2003, 12:20 AM

This is the second hd1 clip I've noticed this on: The edge enhancement is only on the horizontal edges! If there is a vertical sharp object, like a flag pole, it seems to remain as is. I'll bet the video is being processed as scan lines going from the top to bottom, and that is where the EE takes place. It's a 1D process, not a true sharpening kernel, so to speak.
-Les

Eric Bilodeau · November 14th, 2003, 07:22 AM

Interresting Peter. So the blurry effect would come from the WMP9 encoding... Also very revealing is Les's comment about the horizontal vs vertical EE. I never really noticed, I will check it out.

Barry Green · November 14th, 2003, 12:29 PM

We spent some time last night exploring the EE artifacting, and it is definitely very strong on the horizontals, not so noticeable on the verticals. (i.e., a black horizontal line will have a white line added above and below it, but not much added to the sides).

November 11th, 2003, 11:35 PM	#1
David Gomez Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 50	Why do people complain about this camera? Look at the incredible footage! Look at these incredible videos.... http://www.ne.jp/asahi/smaeda/12/wm9/wm9-8/wm9-8-1.htm Huge files, 200 MB, Cable modem / DSL users only , each file took me close to half an hour. Footage shot with an HD1. Maybe I am still an amateur at this but please tell me what's wrong with the footage in those clips? Can the other 3 CCD DV camcorders come even close to that quality? No, I do not work for JVC. You need Windows Media 9.

November 11th, 2003, 11:48 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	In the right hands, it can produce some exceptionally beautiful video, no doubt about that. The most legitimate complaint I've seen so far is the lack of a full manual shooting mode. There's only aperture priority or shutter priority, but no way to manually control both aperture and shutter at the same time. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 12th, 2003, 12:02 AM	#4
Mike Eby Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Osceola,IN Posts: 62	Here is something I put together shot with the HD1. http://www.advancedcomputerdesigns.com/flowers2.wmv I been playing around with brightness filter in post and so far very happy with the results. Mike __________________ http://www.acdnow.com

November 12th, 2003, 06:17 PM	#7
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	There are also HD10 clips over here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=14422 http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=11460 Mike's HD1 clips are among the best HD1's I've seen, they are very good. __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

November 12th, 2003, 07:27 PM	#8
Mike Eby Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Osceola,IN Posts: 62	<<<-- Originally posted by Les Dit : Thanks for the nice example clip! I noticed at about 38 sec into the clip, the purple flowers, the black edging was more pronounced in the up-down direction, vs the side to side direction. Or is that the flower, did it really have a black line around the outer edge like that ? -Les -->>> Yep Les that the EE everyone complains about. The high contrast conditions seem to really make it show up. <<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau :Mike's HD1 clips are among the best HD1's I've seen, they are very good. -->>> Thanks Eric! The EE DOES bother me and if I was trying to make money with my camera it would not be acceptable. I just don't understand the logic of adding the EE. The weird thing is it seems so show more on some displays than others. I would really like to see how a HD10 compares under exactly the same conditions. Mike __________________ http://www.acdnow.com

November 11th, 2003, 11:59 PM	#3
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Well I'd have to say that those footages are not very stirring. The sky is consistently blown out, while the foreground subjects are dark in the very same frame. I perferred much more latittude. I know some ppl here are partial to subdued colors, but these clips' colors are too muddy looking for me (The preverbial 1 CCDesque look) and definitely lacks when compared to 3CCD cams. So sum it up, the resolution is nice, but the color is not.

November 12th, 2003, 12:44 AM	#5
David Gomez Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Atlanta Posts: 50	Awesome footage! <<<-- Originally posted by Mike Eby : Here is something I put together shot with the HD1. http://www.advancedcomputerdesigns.com/flowers2.wmv I been playing around with brightness filter in post and so far very happy with the results. Mike -->>>

November 12th, 2003, 04:49 AM	#6
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Thanks for the nice example clip! I noticed at about 38 sec into the clip, the purple flowers, the black edging was more pronounced in the up-down direction, vs the side to side direction. Or is that the flower, did it really have a black line around the outer edge like that ? -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Mike Eby : Here is something I put together shot with the HD1. http://www.advancedcomputerdesigns.com/flowers2.wmv I been playing around with brightness filter in post and so far very happy with the results. Mike -->>>

November 13th, 2003, 04:39 PM	#10
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	David, to answer your original post, there are two types of people who complain about this camera: those who haven't used it, and those who have. Those who haven't used it are whining fools, complaining about the theoretical limitations of a 1-CCD system or griping about MPEG-2, rather than just giving it a shot and seeing what it can do. Practice trumps theory every time. Those who HAVE used it, complain about the consumer form factor -- the absurd limitations put on something that's supposed to be a professional camera (the HD10, not the HD1). When you get it to work for you, under controlled conditions, you don't hear ANY complaining -- it's capable of some incredible results, especially when you factor in the price. But if you step outside of its "happy zone", it can be a frustrating and trying experience to try to get usable footage from it. If JVC solves those limitations, (perhaps by stuffing HDV circuitry in their excellent DV5000U camera body) then they will sell a bazillion of them. HDV is very promising -- but the current camera is quite limited, that's all. Stay tuned, things may get very interesting very soon!

November 13th, 2003, 04:59 PM	#11
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	Quite an exact affirmation Barry, it sums up very well what we are facing here. Good to see I'm not alone thinking that... __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

November 13th, 2003, 09:05 PM	#12
Peter Robert Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Singapore Posts: 70	The footages donwloaded from Japanese site looks good only when the camera is static. Whenever it tilts or pans, picture is blurred. It doesn't happen to m2t footage but only to wmp9 format. I did the same test with the footage shot by my hd1. The result is the same. I really hate the blurred picture. My preference is : Not encode m2t file to wmp9 format. I keep all m2t in d-vhs tape and wait until blue laser disc comes.

November 14th, 2003, 12:20 AM	#13
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	This is the second hd1 clip I've noticed this on: The edge enhancement is only on the horizontal edges! If there is a vertical sharp object, like a flag pole, it seems to remain as is. I'll bet the video is being processed as scan lines going from the top to bottom, and that is where the EE takes place. It's a 1D process, not a true sharpening kernel, so to speak. -Les

November 14th, 2003, 07:22 AM	#14
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	Interresting Peter. So the blurry effect would come from the WMP9 encoding... Also very revealing is Les's comment about the horizontal vs vertical EE. I never really noticed, I will check it out. __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

November 14th, 2003, 12:29 PM	#15
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	We spent some time last night exploring the EE artifacting, and it is definitely very strong on the horizontals, not so noticeable on the verticals. (i.e., a black horizontal line will have a white line added above and below it, but not much added to the sides).