OK, is there a A/B compare of HD1 vs 3chip DV?

Ken Hodson · December 8th, 2003, 08:46 PM

Wow thats a world of differance.
The questions that remain are wether the DVX is showing its lower resolution limits in the background or is it an effect of DOF?

With all of these head to head shots the subject is always very close. I would like to see a comparison where talent is shot 20-25 feet away with DOF not a issue. eg. person against a wall shot from 25 feet out. Then we will be able to judge if the resolution is a factor.
As it stands now we don't know if the JVC is showing higher definition due to the clarity of the background or it is simply a lack of DOF!
Ken

Diu Hai · December 8th, 2003, 09:10 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Okay, this old footage is now outdated -- turns out Vegas doesn't do a very sharp up-rez to HD from SD footage, so the DVX wasn't showing as well as it could.

I've re-done the footage, using DVX100 footage up-rezzed using S-SPline Pro. Ignore the old high-rez clip, and use this one as your basis for comparison instead:

http://66.78.26.9/~fiercely/DVXvsJVC/NewDVXvsJVC.mpg -->>>

before your new clip i would say, wow the hd1 is worth to own.
now i say, is there a point to own?

Les Dit · December 8th, 2003, 09:39 PM

Barry,
You didn't hit that DVX footage with the unsharp mask option on S-spline-pro, now did you? :)
I just tried it myself, and it sure looks like it was sharpened.
You don't sell used cars do you? :) -joke

Too keep it Apples to Apples, perhaps you should S-spline the JVC footage as well.
Did you break out the video to stills, process them, and then re-import them as a sequence, or does S-spline work with an editor?
I've only used it on Photoshop stills, and it does a very nice job!
-Les

Barry Green · December 8th, 2003, 10:03 PM

Yeah, I found the "make the DVX blurry" option and checked it OFF.

Seriously, S-Spline Pro does a wonderful job of up-rezzing. The problem I had was that the Vegas codec I was using, to export the stills, does no chroma filtering or smoothing (so you get very sharp and rough 4:1:1 edges, as opposed to something like the Avid codec, which does a nice smoothing on those edges).

So I found a way to use my old Matrox codec and enable smoothing/filtering. Then I exported the footage as a series of stills, brought them into S-Spline Pro and batch-processed them, resizing to 1280 x 720 and using the "graphics" preset. Then I imported the stills sequence into Vegas, and imported the JVC footage, and then rendered out a 720/30P MainConcept MPG.

I was kinda blown away by the results. I mean, sure, the JVC is still a bit sharper, but I'd say the DVX is now at 80% to 90%, and all the other aspects of the image are so much more pleasing, and using the DVX is a significantly more pleasant experience than using the HD1... so now I think I'll call the camera the HDVx100... ;)

Les Dit · December 8th, 2003, 10:16 PM

I just tried S-spline pro on the JVC footage. Yikes, I mean I just don't want to see any more detail on that Las Vegas 'lady'!

It's amazing, like magic.
My point is that you can always sharpen something a bit, but it always helps it you have more *real* detail there to begin with.
It would be nice if S-spline worked directly with Vegas.
-Les

Diu Hai · December 8th, 2003, 10:34 PM

are you supposed to get a better quality if you upsample the SD to hd then convert it to dvd or vcd or whatever the other lower resolution format than just converting the SD?

Barry Green · December 8th, 2003, 10:41 PM

No, for DVD's or other SD output just use what you've got already. For grins I tried up-rezzing to HD and then down-rezzing to SD, and it's kind of a pointless exercise...

... whereas the JVC, when downrezzed to SD, retains its super-sharpness.

Diu Hai · December 8th, 2003, 11:12 PM

how do you export the video to stills in vegas?

Ken Hodson · December 9th, 2003, 02:55 AM

Oh my God I am so confused now :>(
OK so without S-Spline Pro the JVC holds a huge resolution advantage.
But with S-Spline Pro the DVX100 virtually erasers this advantage.
Now this is where I am confussed. Even though they look very similar in sharpness when the DVX footage is S-Spline Pro'ed, when down sampled the JVC will hold its detail and the S-Spline Pro footage won't? How is that?

Does S-Spline Pro'ed footage have any sort of motion difficulties, or any knowen shortcummings as far a video goes?
Ken

Les Dit · December 9th, 2003, 03:30 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : Oh my God I am so confused now :>(

But with S-Spline Pro the DVX100 virtually erasers this advantage.
Ken -->>>

No, because you can do the s-spline ( sharpen, really ) to the JVC footage as well.
There are no miracles here. Just tools.

-Les

Ken Hodson · December 9th, 2003, 04:58 AM

Yes, but say your delivery format is 720p. You couldn't go anywhere with the JVC, but the dvx100 would look pretty good.
Can I ask what the time frame is to render each frame with S-Spline Pro? PC or MAC.
Ken

Graeme Nattress · December 9th, 2003, 05:17 AM

s-spline isn't a sharpener - it's a spline based image upsampler that uses some mightly clever algorithms to make a picture enlargement look a lot better than bicubic.

Also, we're still not comparing the same things - the JVC footage is sharpended to death in camera - nothing can save that in post, whereas the DVX is not over-sharpened.

I'm guessing the JVC has the sharpness always on because the picture can't stand the scrutiny without it. To get colour and luminance of a single chip you can't use all the pixels for resolution - something's got to give. Sharpness gives fake resolution, and is a bit of a band aid for lack of real detail. Before any serious comparisons between the JVC and anything else can be made, we need to see what the JVC looks like without sharpening.

Graeme

Ken Hodson · December 9th, 2003, 05:50 AM

" I'm guessing the JVC has the sharpness always on because the picture can't stand the scrutiny without it."

I was under the impression that the HD10 does not suffer from over sharpening like the HD1 used in the comparison. And its image holds up. I think 720p is going to give you a sharp looking image even with no sharpness enhancement from the cam.
Ken

Kenn Christenson · December 9th, 2003, 10:30 AM

Actually, if you can tear your eyes away from the model's face and look at the LED numbers on the slate and the deck in the background you'll see quite a difference in the readability of the numbers between the DVX and the HD1.

Les Dit · December 9th, 2003, 03:34 PM

I beg to differ on the poo pooing of the single chip. With enough pixels, a single chip does just fine.
See example stills from any digital still camera.
-Les

<<<-- Originally posted by Graeme Nattress : s-spline isn't a sharpener - it's a spline based image upsampler that uses some mightly clever algorithms to make a picture enlargement look a lot better than bicubic.

Also, we're still not comparing the same things - the JVC footage is sharpended to death in camera - nothing can save that in post, whereas the DVX is not over-sharpened.

I'm guessing the JVC has the sharpness always on because the picture can't stand the scrutiny without it. To get colour and luminance of a single chip you can't use all the pixels for resolution - something's got to give. Sharpness gives fake resolution, and is a bit of a band aid for lack of real detail. Before any serious comparisons between the JVC and anything else can be made, we need to see what the JVC looks like without sharpening.

Graeme -->>>

December 8th, 2003, 08:46 PM	#31
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Wow thats a world of differance. The questions that remain are wether the DVX is showing its lower resolution limits in the background or is it an effect of DOF? With all of these head to head shots the subject is always very close. I would like to see a comparison where talent is shot 20-25 feet away with DOF not a issue. eg. person against a wall shot from 25 feet out. Then we will be able to judge if the resolution is a factor. As it stands now we don't know if the JVC is showing higher definition due to the clarity of the background or it is simply a lack of DOF! Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 9th, 2003, 02:55 AM	#39
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Oh my God I am so confused now :>( OK so without S-Spline Pro the JVC holds a huge resolution advantage. But with S-Spline Pro the DVX100 virtually erasers this advantage. Now this is where I am confussed. Even though they look very similar in sharpness when the DVX footage is S-Spline Pro'ed, when down sampled the JVC will hold its detail and the S-Spline Pro footage won't? How is that? Does S-Spline Pro'ed footage have any sort of motion difficulties, or any knowen shortcummings as far a video goes? Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 9th, 2003, 04:58 AM	#41
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Yes, but say your delivery format is 720p. You couldn't go anywhere with the JVC, but the dvx100 would look pretty good. Can I ask what the time frame is to render each frame with S-Spline Pro? PC or MAC. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 9th, 2003, 05:17 AM	#42
Graeme Nattress RED Problem Solver Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 1,365	s-spline isn't a sharpener - it's a spline based image upsampler that uses some mightly clever algorithms to make a picture enlargement look a lot better than bicubic. Also, we're still not comparing the same things - the JVC footage is sharpended to death in camera - nothing can save that in post, whereas the DVX is not over-sharpened. I'm guessing the JVC has the sharpness always on because the picture can't stand the scrutiny without it. To get colour and luminance of a single chip you can't use all the pixels for resolution - something's got to give. Sharpness gives fake resolution, and is a bit of a band aid for lack of real detail. Before any serious comparisons between the JVC and anything else can be made, we need to see what the JVC looks like without sharpening. Graeme __________________ www.nattress.com - filters for FCP

December 9th, 2003, 05:50 AM	#43
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	" I'm guessing the JVC has the sharpness always on because the picture can't stand the scrutiny without it." I was under the impression that the HD10 does not suffer from over sharpening like the HD1 used in the comparison. And its image holds up. I think 720p is going to give you a sharp looking image even with no sharpness enhancement from the cam. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

December 8th, 2003, 09:10 PM	#32
Diu Hai New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 19	<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Okay, this old footage is now outdated -- turns out Vegas doesn't do a very sharp up-rez to HD from SD footage, so the DVX wasn't showing as well as it could. I've re-done the footage, using DVX100 footage up-rezzed using S-SPline Pro. Ignore the old high-rez clip, and use this one as your basis for comparison instead: http://66.78.26.9/~fiercely/DVXvsJVC/NewDVXvsJVC.mpg -->>> before your new clip i would say, wow the hd1 is worth to own. now i say, is there a point to own?

December 8th, 2003, 09:39 PM	#33
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	Barry, You didn't hit that DVX footage with the unsharp mask option on S-spline-pro, now did you? :) I just tried it myself, and it sure looks like it was sharpened. You don't sell used cars do you? :) -joke Too keep it Apples to Apples, perhaps you should S-spline the JVC footage as well. Did you break out the video to stills, process them, and then re-import them as a sequence, or does S-spline work with an editor? I've only used it on Photoshop stills, and it does a very nice job! -Les

December 8th, 2003, 10:03 PM	#34
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	Yeah, I found the "make the DVX blurry" option and checked it OFF. Seriously, S-Spline Pro does a wonderful job of up-rezzing. The problem I had was that the Vegas codec I was using, to export the stills, does no chroma filtering or smoothing (so you get very sharp and rough 4:1:1 edges, as opposed to something like the Avid codec, which does a nice smoothing on those edges). So I found a way to use my old Matrox codec and enable smoothing/filtering. Then I exported the footage as a series of stills, brought them into S-Spline Pro and batch-processed them, resizing to 1280 x 720 and using the "graphics" preset. Then I imported the stills sequence into Vegas, and imported the JVC footage, and then rendered out a 720/30P MainConcept MPG. I was kinda blown away by the results. I mean, sure, the JVC is still a bit sharper, but I'd say the DVX is now at 80% to 90%, and all the other aspects of the image are so much more pleasing, and using the DVX is a significantly more pleasant experience than using the HD1... so now I think I'll call the camera the HDVx100... ;)

December 8th, 2003, 10:16 PM	#35
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	I just tried S-spline pro on the JVC footage. Yikes, I mean I just don't want to see any more detail on that Las Vegas 'lady'! It's amazing, like magic. My point is that you can always sharpen something a bit, but it always helps it you have more real detail there to begin with. It would be nice if S-spline worked directly with Vegas. -Les

December 8th, 2003, 10:34 PM	#36
Diu Hai New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 19	are you supposed to get a better quality if you upsample the SD to hd then convert it to dvd or vcd or whatever the other lower resolution format than just converting the SD?

December 8th, 2003, 10:41 PM	#37
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	No, for DVD's or other SD output just use what you've got already. For grins I tried up-rezzing to HD and then down-rezzing to SD, and it's kind of a pointless exercise... ... whereas the JVC, when downrezzed to SD, retains its super-sharpness.

December 8th, 2003, 11:12 PM	#38
Diu Hai New Boot Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 19	how do you export the video to stills in vegas?

December 9th, 2003, 03:30 AM	#40
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Hodson : Oh my God I am so confused now :>( But with S-Spline Pro the DVX100 virtually erasers this advantage. Ken -->>> No, because you can do the s-spline ( sharpen, really ) to the JVC footage as well. There are no miracles here. Just tools. -Les

December 9th, 2003, 10:30 AM	#44
Kenn Christenson Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Medford Oregon Posts: 152	Actually, if you can tear your eyes away from the model's face and look at the LED numbers on the slate and the deck in the background you'll see quite a difference in the readability of the numbers between the DVX and the HD1.

December 9th, 2003, 03:34 PM	#45
Les Dit Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Southern Cal-ee-for-Ni-ya Posts: 608	I beg to differ on the poo pooing of the single chip. With enough pixels, a single chip does just fine. See example stills from any digital still camera. -Les <<<-- Originally posted by Graeme Nattress : s-spline isn't a sharpener - it's a spline based image upsampler that uses some mightly clever algorithms to make a picture enlargement look a lot better than bicubic. Also, we're still not comparing the same things - the JVC footage is sharpended to death in camera - nothing can save that in post, whereas the DVX is not over-sharpened. I'm guessing the JVC has the sharpness always on because the picture can't stand the scrutiny without it. To get colour and luminance of a single chip you can't use all the pixels for resolution - something's got to give. Sharpness gives fake resolution, and is a bit of a band aid for lack of real detail. Before any serious comparisons between the JVC and anything else can be made, we need to see what the JVC looks like without sharpening. Graeme -->>>