What about the sound via XLR on HD10? at DVinfo.net

Heath McKnight · October 23rd, 2003, 10:59 PM

Any word on those of us with the canned sound on the HD10, when running ANY microphones through the XLR and into the HD10? I hear no one with a newer model is having problems, and I was one of the very first to buy this darned camera...

Will JVC do anything to fix it? I'm still far off from buying a DAT recorder.

heath

Steve Mullen · October 23rd, 2003, 11:48 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Any word on those of us with the canned sound on the HD10, when running ANY microphones through the XLR and into the HD10? I hear no one with a newer model is having problems, and I was one of the very first to buy this darned camera...

Will JVC do anything to fix it? I'm still far off from buying a DAT recorder.

heath -->>>

The brand new one I used a few weeks ago was perfect. I had one of the first in the USA and it had bad sound.

I feel sure JVC knows this. I would fight real hard while you are in-warrantee.

Stephen L. Minor · October 30th, 2003, 02:23 AM

I'm not really a sound guy, so forgive me for the lack of detail.

I shot a short in Aug. w/ the cam. Sound was horrible "canned" Luckly, my sound guy was very good he used a "beech box" which connected to the bottom of the camera and took out the issue of poor quality. We used a seinheiser mic. (don't know how it's spelled) and some Lav's (who knows what kind)

Basically, the beech box thing saved us. I have no idea if it was the adapter that comes w/ or internal problems.

I would like to know if this was a defect in the cam, should I exchange mine for a new one?

Alex Raskin · October 30th, 2003, 09:31 AM

SL, the beachtek box you're talking about is simply an adapter from XLR to 1/8" cam's input jack.

All it does is allow you to connect any balanced XLR mike to your camera (including Sennheiser - most likely you used ME66 with K6 capsule) and adjust the volume. However the signal becomes unbalanced again on the 1/8" jack side.

Note that HD10 already comes with a similar adapter included, but possibly of inferior quality to Beachtek.

As the Beachtek adapter is not recording the sound itself, it cannot possibly improve it - the burden is still on the camcorder.

In fact, adding *anything* in the sound chain slightly degrades the sound as the matter of physics.

But Beachtek boxes are of a good quality, so such degradation is usually negligible.

Bottom line: feed quality sound into quality recorder, and you'll get a fine production value. For serious production using prosumer cams, there's simply no other way than to use a separate, professional sound recorder and just log your sound takes alongside with the video takes, then sync manually in post.

You still can use camera's built-in sound for the reference track in rough edit.

Stephen L. Minor · October 30th, 2003, 02:36 PM

yea, like I said I'm not sure what does what. But the beachbox surely made the difference. Without it, the sound would not have been usable. I have no idea why, you can call Location Sound in los angeles where we rented the sound equipment. They recommended the box to us after we told them we were getting the echo effect w/ the cam. It worked, and saved a bundle DAT was more money, and hassle in post.

I agree w/ using separate sound (DAT) for best quality, this goes without saying. The art is ALWAYS paramount over technical issues when a compromise must be made. The audience will ALWAYS forgive you, IF you have a good film.

Someone posted in another thread about sound being more important than the picture (arguably). I completely agree. IMO, sound is 70% of the experience.

Alex Raskin · October 30th, 2003, 02:49 PM

Ditto SL!

In my own little productions, some video sequences just didn't make sense before the right sound (foley, score) was applied.

Although I myself always maintained that sound is *at least* as important as images, I'm sometimes shocked to discover to what extent this is true.

Lisa Lee · October 31st, 2003, 07:33 PM

"SL, the beachtek box you're talking about is simply an adapter from XLR to 1/8" cam's input jack."

Is the XLR input the problem with the canned sound or is it internal? And, will any adapter do to get rid of the canned sound?

Alex Raskin · October 31st, 2003, 08:01 PM

Lisa, I do not know what caused the "canned" sound on this cam in the first place.

Reportedly, there's been a phase or a time shift between the 2 audio channels in early batches of the camera. When played simultaneously, they'd produce inferior sound. (Given that you virtually never really record *stereo* sound during production, an easy fix would be to simply discard one channel in post, or to record only one channel in the first place.) Again reportedly, JVC subsequently fixed that.

Back to your question. If it aint broken, don't fix it. If your mic connects to your camera just fine, then don't add anything.

Beachtek (or any similar XLR to 1/8") adapters are good in the following situations:

- Your mic is too hot for your camera's input. Use Beachtek as a pad.

- You have 2 mics and you'd like to do the mix on the fly (Beachtek has models with 2 quasi-independent XLR mic inputs, each with its own volume control, and with a mono-stereo switch. Mono lets you mix 2 inputs)

- YOur mic is XLR while your cam doesn't have XLR jack

- Your XLR mic needs phantom power (some models do provide that)

- Your XLR mic is far from the camera, so you decided to run a long, *balanced* XLR cable to prevent possible interference.

By reading this, you may have an impression that I'm promoting Beachtek or similar adapters :)

In fact, my point is very simple: want useable sound? Forget recording it in camera - just use double system.

Quality mini-disk or hard-drive -based mobile systems are compact and provide all of the features as outlined above, plus input limiters, ganging, quality meters, instant headphone monitoring, multiple ways of outputting/transferring the recording sound to your NLE, etc etc etc.

Use double system... Use double system... Did I hypnotize you yet? :)

Try it... it's not as scary as it seems, and your sound will be excellent. That is, with $600-$1000 mic and a good boom operator, of course.

Steve Mullen · November 1st, 2003, 02:43 AM

When I retest the Hd10 for canned sound I used a simple XLR to 1/8-inch cable I bought for a VX1000 years ago. Worked fine. You can always "unblance" a balanced mic for short cable runs.

Alexes description of the Beechbox is right. However, if you mic is too hot -- an in-cable attenuater is far better than adding a box to your camcorder.

Stephen L. Minor · November 2nd, 2003, 03:25 PM

If this issue of "canned" sound has been fixed, should I ask JVC to replace my cam under warranty? I know for sure I have one of the first one's in production.

Lisa Lee · November 2nd, 2003, 07:46 PM

I just got my HD10 a couple weeks ago and it still has "canned sound" so I'm not too sure if its been fixed. Though, I honestly didn't expect much from a consumer cam like this.

Steve Mullen · November 2nd, 2003, 10:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Lisa Lee : I just got my HD10 a couple weeks ago and it still has "canned sound" so I'm not too sure if its been fixed. Though, I honestly didn't expect much from a consumer cam like this. -->>>

It's beginning to look like it's an interaction between mics and the camcorder. I've heard footage and shot footage without a canned sound.

I'm waiting on a report from someone using an Azden mic who is switching from XLE to direct connect.

October 23rd, 2003, 10:59 PM	#1
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	What about the sound via XLR on HD10? Any word on those of us with the canned sound on the HD10, when running ANY microphones through the XLR and into the HD10? I hear no one with a newer model is having problems, and I was one of the very first to buy this darned camera... Will JVC do anything to fix it? I'm still far off from buying a DAT recorder. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 23rd, 2003, 11:48 PM	#2
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Re: What about the sound via XLR on HD10? <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Any word on those of us with the canned sound on the HD10, when running ANY microphones through the XLR and into the HD10? I hear no one with a newer model is having problems, and I was one of the very first to buy this darned camera... Will JVC do anything to fix it? I'm still far off from buying a DAT recorder. heath -->>> The brand new one I used a few weeks ago was perfect. I had one of the first in the USA and it had bad sound. I feel sure JVC knows this. I would fight real hard while you are in-warrantee. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 30th, 2003, 02:23 AM	#3
Stephen L. Minor Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: L.A., CA Posts: 35	I'm not really a sound guy, so forgive me for the lack of detail. I shot a short in Aug. w/ the cam. Sound was horrible "canned" Luckly, my sound guy was very good he used a "beech box" which connected to the bottom of the camera and took out the issue of poor quality. We used a seinheiser mic. (don't know how it's spelled) and some Lav's (who knows what kind) Basically, the beech box thing saved us. I have no idea if it was the adapter that comes w/ or internal problems. I would like to know if this was a defect in the cam, should I exchange mine for a new one? __________________ -S

October 30th, 2003, 02:36 PM	#5
Stephen L. Minor Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: L.A., CA Posts: 35	yea, like I said I'm not sure what does what. But the beachbox surely made the difference. Without it, the sound would not have been usable. I have no idea why, you can call Location Sound in los angeles where we rented the sound equipment. They recommended the box to us after we told them we were getting the echo effect w/ the cam. It worked, and saved a bundle DAT was more money, and hassle in post. I agree w/ using separate sound (DAT) for best quality, this goes without saying. The art is ALWAYS paramount over technical issues when a compromise must be made. The audience will ALWAYS forgive you, IF you have a good film. Someone posted in another thread about sound being more important than the picture (arguably). I completely agree. IMO, sound is 70% of the experience. __________________ -S

November 1st, 2003, 02:43 AM	#9
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	When I retest the Hd10 for canned sound I used a simple XLR to 1/8-inch cable I bought for a VX1000 years ago. Worked fine. You can always "unblance" a balanced mic for short cable runs. Alexes description of the Beechbox is right. However, if you mic is too hot -- an in-cable attenuater is far better than adding a box to your camcorder. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 30th, 2003, 09:31 AM	#4
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	SL, the beachtek box you're talking about is simply an adapter from XLR to 1/8" cam's input jack. All it does is allow you to connect any balanced XLR mike to your camera (including Sennheiser - most likely you used ME66 with K6 capsule) and adjust the volume. However the signal becomes unbalanced again on the 1/8" jack side. Note that HD10 already comes with a similar adapter included, but possibly of inferior quality to Beachtek. As the Beachtek adapter is not recording the sound itself, it cannot possibly improve it - the burden is still on the camcorder. In fact, adding anything in the sound chain slightly degrades the sound as the matter of physics. But Beachtek boxes are of a good quality, so such degradation is usually negligible. Bottom line: feed quality sound into quality recorder, and you'll get a fine production value. For serious production using prosumer cams, there's simply no other way than to use a separate, professional sound recorder and just log your sound takes alongside with the video takes, then sync manually in post. You still can use camera's built-in sound for the reference track in rough edit.

October 30th, 2003, 02:49 PM	#6
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Ditto SL! In my own little productions, some video sequences just didn't make sense before the right sound (foley, score) was applied. Although I myself always maintained that sound is at least as important as images, I'm sometimes shocked to discover to what extent this is true.

October 31st, 2003, 07:33 PM	#7
Lisa Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 86	"SL, the beachtek box you're talking about is simply an adapter from XLR to 1/8" cam's input jack." Is the XLR input the problem with the canned sound or is it internal? And, will any adapter do to get rid of the canned sound?

October 31st, 2003, 08:01 PM	#8
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Lisa, I do not know what caused the "canned" sound on this cam in the first place. Reportedly, there's been a phase or a time shift between the 2 audio channels in early batches of the camera. When played simultaneously, they'd produce inferior sound. (Given that you virtually never really record stereo sound during production, an easy fix would be to simply discard one channel in post, or to record only one channel in the first place.) Again reportedly, JVC subsequently fixed that. Back to your question. If it aint broken, don't fix it. If your mic connects to your camera just fine, then don't add anything. Beachtek (or any similar XLR to 1/8") adapters are good in the following situations: - Your mic is too hot for your camera's input. Use Beachtek as a pad. - You have 2 mics and you'd like to do the mix on the fly (Beachtek has models with 2 quasi-independent XLR mic inputs, each with its own volume control, and with a mono-stereo switch. Mono lets you mix 2 inputs) - YOur mic is XLR while your cam doesn't have XLR jack - Your XLR mic needs phantom power (some models do provide that) - Your XLR mic is far from the camera, so you decided to run a long, balanced XLR cable to prevent possible interference. By reading this, you may have an impression that I'm promoting Beachtek or similar adapters :) In fact, my point is very simple: want useable sound? Forget recording it in camera - just use double system. Quality mini-disk or hard-drive -based mobile systems are compact and provide all of the features as outlined above, plus input limiters, ganging, quality meters, instant headphone monitoring, multiple ways of outputting/transferring the recording sound to your NLE, etc etc etc. Use double system... Use double system... Did I hypnotize you yet? :) Try it... it's not as scary as it seems, and your sound will be excellent. That is, with $600-$1000 mic and a good boom operator, of course.

November 2nd, 2003, 03:25 PM	#10
Stephen L. Minor Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: L.A., CA Posts: 35	If this issue of "canned" sound has been fixed, should I ask JVC to replace my cam under warranty? I know for sure I have one of the first one's in production. __________________ -S

November 2nd, 2003, 07:46 PM	#11
Lisa Lee Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 86	I just got my HD10 a couple weeks ago and it still has "canned sound" so I'm not too sure if its been fixed. Though, I honestly didn't expect much from a consumer cam like this.

November 2nd, 2003, 10:50 PM	#12
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Lisa Lee : I just got my HD10 a couple weeks ago and it still has "canned sound" so I'm not too sure if its been fixed. Though, I honestly didn't expect much from a consumer cam like this. -->>> It's beginning to look like it's an interaction between mics and the camcorder. I've heard footage and shot footage without a canned sound. I'm waiting on a report from someone using an Azden mic who is switching from XLE to direct connect. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c