Which one is better ? Panasonic AG-DVX100 OR JVC GR-HD1

Yang Wen · October 26th, 2003, 11:12 PM

On the flipside, I can say the same about the indie stuff. But you've got your taste and obviously everyone can see that "you" dont want to talk about wedding shots. Which is preceisely why I haven't brought up that subject with you.

Frederic Lumiere · October 26th, 2003, 11:16 PM

That's the title of my next wedding video...I mean indie film.

Shane Walker · October 28th, 2003, 06:48 PM

I think the point I was making, and what noone has really addressed...is that cost issues have pushed all major consumer electronics makers to treat HD like a hot potato...and only offer it to the masses in a "cut-rate" form in pretty much all acquistion and viewing options. Most people are abusing the term HD and are really talking Enhanced Definiton--an a/v '8-track-cassette inbetween format' just waiting to become obsolete.

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2003, 07:58 AM

I saw a DV feature last night projected in theatre made by a VERY succesful DV Feature filmmaker. It looked like CRAP! and somehow he sold it. Believe me when I say that he had a lot more to worry about than a bit of Chroma Noise. The whole film was a bunch of noise! He made his success by being one of the very first DV feature in Theatres.

We spoke about HDV and he was frightened by the NEW technology. Interesting... Because he had overcome his fears with DV and that's what contributed to his success.

My point is that I'm not going to get on these boards and try to convince people that HDV and the HD10U is great. Because when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what other people think. What matter is the product. At some point I had to ask myself the question: Am I defending the merits of this camera to convince others or myself?

I did test shoots with this camera and overall I am thrilled by the results! Not perfect but better than any DV I've seen projected.

So now it's time for me to produce.

From now on, I will contribute to this board to share technical knowledge on the camera and post production. Other than that, I'm done defending it. The product will speak for itself.

Wow! That was powerful wasn't it...

Alex Raskin · October 29th, 2003, 08:45 AM

Frederic, right on.

Practical question: how do you index the footage captured from the camera?

Say, you had a log of your shots/takes during production, each corresponding to the timecode.

But when you capture the files using the HD10's bundled HD Capture Utility, it only numbers them sequentially, without any timecode reference.

So you lose all correlation between your shot/take log, and the files you have on your PC now.

What do you do to re-establish such connection?

Ken Hodson · October 29th, 2003, 01:46 PM

Shane- It can hardly become obsolete. You can edit with it now, it uses mini-DV tapes, and imports via firewire. None of these will change. The only thing that will become obsolete will be DV format once more HDV cameras arrive with full features.
Ken

Ken Hodson · October 29th, 2003, 02:07 PM

I agree with what you said Frederic. But I also don't think it is right when some corporate or format loyalist come here bashing the camera. Curiosity and fear are the reason why these lurkers show up. They need to come here and spout-off to build up their ego's.
I have never seen such agression towards a new product. Was this how the hi-8 to miniDV transition happened?
Ken

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2003, 02:11 PM

Alex,

Great question. The last production I shot and edited was a 2 episode children televion show. We shot with 4 cameras all synched to one master track. So we slated each camera with conventional slating format (Scene/Take/Roll/Sound Reel).

To get back to your question, when time came to edit the footage I dumped the 25 hours of DV on hard drives.

Our script supervisor did an excellent job at keeping track of each shot on her log and that's what i used to find my scenes and synch them back to the audio. timecode was never mentioned in the log and that was no problem at all. Would've been a nightmare to keep track of TC for 4 cameras anyway. It's more important for me to know which cam has the wide or CU on a particular take than it is to know the exact timecode. Often i also give the script supervisor my notes. Such as "Take 3 has a great reaction from sleepy" or "Camera C has the props".

I used a naming convention to label each file (reel) per camera and by consulting the log I could find my take in a few seconds no problem. I started using the FCP feature DV Start/Stop find by eventually decided against it. It was just as quick to use the slider and find the slate.

I hope that answered your question.

Frederic

Alex Raskin · October 29th, 2003, 02:52 PM

Frederic, I appreciate the info.

So if I understood correctly, in post-production you had just 1 very large video file.

You then scrub through it in NLE and find the slates, at which point you cut the footage, name it according to scene/shot/take, and save it.

You then assemble your editing timeline based on the list of good takes, and proceed to editing.

Correct?

If it is, then we can do the similar thing with HD10. The HD Capture Utility cuts footage into the individual files automatically at the points where you paused/stopped recording. This will correspond to the slates automatically (or to some junk segments without the valid takes.)

So you now capture the tape, then view each file (say, in Elecard player - no need for NLE even) and rename them based on the slates to reflect scene/take number.

Then on to the editing.

Is this how you plan to do this now with HD10?

Also, what software do you use to edit?

I have hit the limits of my existing PC with Premiere Pro in HD, so my newly ordered, upgraded PC will arrive in a week. I'm hoping to pull mostly real-time HD editing on it either via proxy files or using the originals, if the horsepower will be enough for that.

What's your approach?

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2003, 02:58 PM

Exactly Alex.

Actually, this capture process (cutting files on start stop) is even better than DV. Unless you used features like find Start/Stop.

I'm using FCP 4.0. I edited 2 feature documentaries on Premier and I like the MAC solution much better.

I just purchased a Dual 1.42 Ghz G4 with 2 GIG RAM on Ebay! It'll do the trick. I am however exploring to do HDV editing offline. haven't decided yet. It's either offline or Pixlet. I need to do a bit more testing before deciding.

F

Alex Raskin · October 29th, 2003, 03:05 PM

I'll tell you how my new PC fares when it's here and functional :)

With the processor/memory/bus I chose, it should pull up to 6.4Gb/s bandwidth between processor and memory.

Not sure what Macs do; I know that Athlon's memory support architecture is currently behind Intel's thus I got P4 3.0Ghz with Hyperthreading and DualDDR PC3200 (400x2) HyperX memory from Kensigton.

Then again, let's see how the whole thing is going to act in reality.

Thanks again for detailed explanation!

Frederic Lumiere · October 29th, 2003, 03:11 PM

No problem.

We'll do an encoding race when you get it...sounds like you're getting yourself a heck of a machine!

I edited my first documentary on a Dual Pentium II, with 2 X 9GIG Barracudas. The whole thing cost me $10K. I couldn't get $50 for it now.

I guess the depreciation of computer equipment motivates you to work a lot to get your money's worth before they loose their value.

F

Shane Walker · October 31st, 2003, 06:14 PM

Well, so-called senior members thanks for the lack of proper response--instead dismissing the voicing of common sense and very real concerns with wasted thousands of dollars in equipment and software purchases as the 'rantings of lurkers' and the 'biased.'

Maybe you have lots of cash to throw away on toys or do the ebay 'trade-in' proceedure like a lot of six-figure income enthusiasts, but for many the purchase has to stick and it needs to work well right out of the gate. I'm speaking on behalf of the stated question that started this thread..."Which of these camera is the smartest purchase?" Not, is 'HDV cool and fun to play with?'

The intermediary format of HDV is indeed very, very intriguing, but many on these lists are dismayed by how virginal the territory is and are looking for trustworthy workflows--that it works 100%. I dove in with DV/desktop editing back in 1997 and it took 2 years of upgrading checkerboarding before it worked as promised, and another two to really become efficient. If forums like this one had given me serious food for thought perhaps a lot of time and money would not have been wasted. That's what this thread's about, solid objective advice, not knee-jerk defenses of personal investments or an egoist's partitioning their so-called professional realm from the odd peon wandering in and stirring up trouble. Is this a stuffy Country Club lounge with the long-time members looking down their noses at the newcomers or what?

In short, I and others may indeed be new to this forum but you don't do yourself any great favors by chosing to belittle or berate. You only illuminate your own biases, not the issues. The moment it becomes a 'no brainer' as to which of these cameras is the most solid tool for those wanting to know, then we can stop asking the hardline.

Frederic Lumiere · October 31st, 2003, 06:21 PM

Shane,

Was that a question?

Shane Walker · October 31st, 2003, 06:24 PM

to the topic of the thread.

October 26th, 2003, 11:16 PM	#32
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	"The battle of Ken and Yan" That's the title of my next wedding video...I mean indie film.

October 28th, 2003, 06:48 PM	#33
Shane Walker New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 11	The primetime statement--clarified... I think the point I was making, and what noone has really addressed...is that cost issues have pushed all major consumer electronics makers to treat HD like a hot potato...and only offer it to the masses in a "cut-rate" form in pretty much all acquistion and viewing options. Most people are abusing the term HD and are really talking Enhanced Definiton--an a/v '8-track-cassette inbetween format' just waiting to become obsolete.

October 29th, 2003, 01:46 PM	#36
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Shane- It can hardly become obsolete. You can edit with it now, it uses mini-DV tapes, and imports via firewire. None of these will change. The only thing that will become obsolete will be DV format once more HDV cameras arrive with full features. Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

October 29th, 2003, 02:07 PM	#37
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I agree with what you said Frederic. But I also don't think it is right when some corporate or format loyalist come here bashing the camera. Curiosity and fear are the reason why these lurkers show up. They need to come here and spout-off to build up their ego's. I have never seen such agression towards a new product. Was this how the hi-8 to miniDV transition happened? Ken __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

October 31st, 2003, 06:14 PM	#43
Shane Walker New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 11	Let's hear the unbiased speak... Well, so-called senior members thanks for the lack of proper response--instead dismissing the voicing of common sense and very real concerns with wasted thousands of dollars in equipment and software purchases as the 'rantings of lurkers' and the 'biased.' Maybe you have lots of cash to throw away on toys or do the ebay 'trade-in' proceedure like a lot of six-figure income enthusiasts, but for many the purchase has to stick and it needs to work well right out of the gate. I'm speaking on behalf of the stated question that started this thread..."Which of these camera is the smartest purchase?" Not, is 'HDV cool and fun to play with?' The intermediary format of HDV is indeed very, very intriguing, but many on these lists are dismayed by how virginal the territory is and are looking for trustworthy workflows--that it works 100%. I dove in with DV/desktop editing back in 1997 and it took 2 years of upgrading checkerboarding before it worked as promised, and another two to really become efficient. If forums like this one had given me serious food for thought perhaps a lot of time and money would not have been wasted. That's what this thread's about, solid objective advice, not knee-jerk defenses of personal investments or an egoist's partitioning their so-called professional realm from the odd peon wandering in and stirring up trouble. Is this a stuffy Country Club lounge with the long-time members looking down their noses at the newcomers or what? In short, I and others may indeed be new to this forum but you don't do yourself any great favors by chosing to belittle or berate. You only illuminate your own biases, not the issues. The moment it becomes a 'no brainer' as to which of these cameras is the most solid tool for those wanting to know, then we can stop asking the hardline.

October 26th, 2003, 11:12 PM	#31
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	On the flipside, I can say the same about the indie stuff. But you've got your taste and obviously everyone can see that "you" dont want to talk about wedding shots. Which is preceisely why I haven't brought up that subject with you.

October 29th, 2003, 07:58 AM	#34
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	I saw a DV feature last night projected in theatre made by a VERY succesful DV Feature filmmaker. It looked like CRAP! and somehow he sold it. Believe me when I say that he had a lot more to worry about than a bit of Chroma Noise. The whole film was a bunch of noise! He made his success by being one of the very first DV feature in Theatres. We spoke about HDV and he was frightened by the NEW technology. Interesting... Because he had overcome his fears with DV and that's what contributed to his success. My point is that I'm not going to get on these boards and try to convince people that HDV and the HD10U is great. Because when it comes down to it, it doesn't matter what other people think. What matter is the product. At some point I had to ask myself the question: Am I defending the merits of this camera to convince others or myself? I did test shoots with this camera and overall I am thrilled by the results! Not perfect but better than any DV I've seen projected. So now it's time for me to produce. From now on, I will contribute to this board to share technical knowledge on the camera and post production. Other than that, I'm done defending it. The product will speak for itself. Wow! That was powerful wasn't it...

October 29th, 2003, 08:45 AM	#35
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Frederic, right on. Practical question: how do you index the footage captured from the camera? Say, you had a log of your shots/takes during production, each corresponding to the timecode. But when you capture the files using the HD10's bundled HD Capture Utility, it only numbers them sequentially, without any timecode reference. So you lose all correlation between your shot/take log, and the files you have on your PC now. What do you do to re-establish such connection?

October 29th, 2003, 02:11 PM	#38
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Alex, Great question. The last production I shot and edited was a 2 episode children televion show. We shot with 4 cameras all synched to one master track. So we slated each camera with conventional slating format (Scene/Take/Roll/Sound Reel). To get back to your question, when time came to edit the footage I dumped the 25 hours of DV on hard drives. Our script supervisor did an excellent job at keeping track of each shot on her log and that's what i used to find my scenes and synch them back to the audio. timecode was never mentioned in the log and that was no problem at all. Would've been a nightmare to keep track of TC for 4 cameras anyway. It's more important for me to know which cam has the wide or CU on a particular take than it is to know the exact timecode. Often i also give the script supervisor my notes. Such as "Take 3 has a great reaction from sleepy" or "Camera C has the props". I used a naming convention to label each file (reel) per camera and by consulting the log I could find my take in a few seconds no problem. I started using the FCP feature DV Start/Stop find by eventually decided against it. It was just as quick to use the slider and find the slate. I hope that answered your question. Frederic

October 29th, 2003, 02:52 PM	#39
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Frederic, I appreciate the info. So if I understood correctly, in post-production you had just 1 very large video file. You then scrub through it in NLE and find the slates, at which point you cut the footage, name it according to scene/shot/take, and save it. You then assemble your editing timeline based on the list of good takes, and proceed to editing. Correct? If it is, then we can do the similar thing with HD10. The HD Capture Utility cuts footage into the individual files automatically at the points where you paused/stopped recording. This will correspond to the slates automatically (or to some junk segments without the valid takes.) So you now capture the tape, then view each file (say, in Elecard player - no need for NLE even) and rename them based on the slates to reflect scene/take number. Then on to the editing. Is this how you plan to do this now with HD10? Also, what software do you use to edit? I have hit the limits of my existing PC with Premiere Pro in HD, so my newly ordered, upgraded PC will arrive in a week. I'm hoping to pull mostly real-time HD editing on it either via proxy files or using the originals, if the horsepower will be enough for that. What's your approach?

October 29th, 2003, 02:58 PM	#40
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Exactly Alex. Actually, this capture process (cutting files on start stop) is even better than DV. Unless you used features like find Start/Stop. I'm using FCP 4.0. I edited 2 feature documentaries on Premier and I like the MAC solution much better. I just purchased a Dual 1.42 Ghz G4 with 2 GIG RAM on Ebay! It'll do the trick. I am however exploring to do HDV editing offline. haven't decided yet. It's either offline or Pixlet. I need to do a bit more testing before deciding. F

October 29th, 2003, 03:05 PM	#41
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	I'll tell you how my new PC fares when it's here and functional :) With the processor/memory/bus I chose, it should pull up to 6.4Gb/s bandwidth between processor and memory. Not sure what Macs do; I know that Athlon's memory support architecture is currently behind Intel's thus I got P4 3.0Ghz with Hyperthreading and DualDDR PC3200 (400x2) HyperX memory from Kensigton. Then again, let's see how the whole thing is going to act in reality. Thanks again for detailed explanation!

October 29th, 2003, 03:11 PM	#42
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	No problem. We'll do an encoding race when you get it...sounds like you're getting yourself a heck of a machine! I edited my first documentary on a Dual Pentium II, with 2 X 9GIG Barracudas. The whole thing cost me $10K. I couldn't get $50 for it now. I guess the depreciation of computer equipment motivates you to work a lot to get your money's worth before they loose their value. F

October 31st, 2003, 06:21 PM	#44
Frederic Lumiere Wrangler Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Point Pleasant, NJ Posts: 437	Shane, Was that a question?

October 31st, 2003, 06:24 PM	#45
Shane Walker New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Chicago, IL USA Posts: 11	I'll check back when someone's offered an answer... to the topic of the thread.