Question for Alex Laskin re: DVD2AVI at DVinfo.net

Peter Richardson · October 15th, 2003, 12:47 PM

Hey Alex--I read your informative responses to Hritik regarding a recommended workflow using PremierePro and DVD2 AVI. I will soon be starting a project with this camera (my first time using it) and have a couple questions regarding theworkflow you suggested.

1. I have downloaded the DVD2AVI software but have not installed it yet. Does it interface with Premiere Pro or is it a standalone program?

2. Once I have edited the footage in Premiere Pro can I output back to the JVC cam and be virtually lossless? My guess is that I have to export my AVI from Premiere, and then do a reverse conversion using DVD2AVI back to the .m2t. Is this correct? And if so, how much image quality can I expect to lose in this process? Thanks a bunch for your helpful advice!

Peter

Alex Raskin · October 15th, 2003, 02:16 PM

1. Standalone. Make sure you install HUFFYUV codec first, and then save HUFFYUV-compressed (lossless!) AVIs as output of DVD2AVI.

2. When edit is ready, output UNCOMPRESSED AVI from PPro. (Why uncompressed? PPro has a bug that prevents it from outputting HUFFYUV-compressed AVIs when HUFF files are in timeline and there is at least 1 transition. I reported this bug to Adobe. Try exporting HUFFYUV and you'll see that the transition part is simply gone and sound is out of sync. If you have a different result, please share it with us.)

Then convert this AVI to mpeg2 Elementary Stream (m2v extension) using TMPGENC.

Then use Womble to multiplex TMPGENC's m2v with whatever the sound you have (ac3 or m2a). Multiplexed result save as m2t.

That's it - now you can upload the resulting file back to HD recorder.

NOTE: I do not see any reason why use camcorder. Instead, use D-VHS recorder: mine is JVC HD30000. You'll get 5.1 sound playback (if your soundtrack is multichannel, of course). I do encode movies with Dolby 5.1.

You'll need DVHSTool utility to upload (archive) your resulting m2t to the 30K device.

Hope this helps.

Peter Richardson · October 15th, 2003, 03:21 PM

Thanks Alex for the very complete workflow description. We are still investigating Aspect HD as another solution. Is there any reason (besides cost, and the ability to use Premiere Pro) that you find your workflow to be better than Aspect?

Peter

Alex Raskin · October 15th, 2003, 03:44 PM

It depends on your workflow.

If you do not plan to process your footage with other software, then Aspect HD is probably a good solution. Professionals on this forum did give it high marks.

Note that it is *not* available for *Premiere Pro* at this time.

I, on the other hand, always use AfterEffects (and some other software) to process parts of the timeline and then re-insert them back into the edit.

Because of it, use of Aspect is out of qestion to me, as it would introduce generational loss in footage quality.

In my case, I use AVIs for the roundabout PPro-AE-PPro, so there's NO quality loss.

David Newman · October 15th, 2003, 05:05 PM

Alex and Peter,

Aspect HD is still excellent choice for work between Premiere and After Effects (and back again.) True, CFHD compression technology (comes with Aspect HD) is not mathematically lossless (like HUFYUV) but is visually lossless even after multiple generations of encoding. The multigeneration nature of CFHD is something it was designed to do. Of course there is a huge benefit to CFHD AVIs over HUFFYUV AVIs, CFHD plays 3-4 times faster in Premiere (therefore you get real-time multilayering -- which means zero generation loss.)

The one thing After Effects can't do with CFHD files is write them (we would need to create a customer exporter as AE is Video for Window [VfW] based rather than a more modern DirectShow solution.) We recommend using HUFFYUV or uncompressed for After Effects exports. These files can then be loaded in Aspect HD / Premiere.

P.S. PPro version Aspect HD is developing well.

Steve Mullen · October 15th, 2003, 05:08 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : If you do not plan to process your footage with other software, then Aspect HD is probably a good solution. Professionals on this forum did give it high marks.. -->>>

Alex I'm not sure why you keep saying this as it's simply not true!

The AVI files after capture can be brought into AE and worked on because Aspect HD adds a codec to your PC.

Thus you can work with ANY software that allows a rez of 1280x720 at 29.97.

David Newman · October 15th, 2003, 05:21 PM

Thanks Steve for the backup. :)

Peter Richardson · October 15th, 2003, 05:59 PM

Thanks for all the great info guys. I think we'll probably go with Aspect HD as the client is fairly high-end and they wouldn't mind springing for the Aspect Software. I definitely appreciate your creative solutions though Alex and would probably employ them if it was my dollar. We'll be importing After Effects animations into our project as well and it's good to know that there is good support for this with Aspect. Thanks again guys and many questions to follow, I'm sure.

Peter

Alex Raskin · October 15th, 2003, 06:20 PM

Steve, I do not have vested interest in any specific solution, so I'm free to express my opinions.

I do take great care to accurately describe what I know, so to help others the best way possible.

You wrote:
"Alex I'm not sure why you keep saying this as it's simply not true!"

Read my post in its entirety before marking it as untrue.

The post was about a *roundabout* of the clips from timeline to other software like AE and back.

To clarify: I didn't say that Aspect doesn't work with other software per se (I remember that you explicitly told us that it does work with AE and other programs).

With roundabout workflow, it simply doesn't matter.

Read David Newman's post above to see why - you still have to use AVIs, HUFFYUV-compressed or uncompressed to ensure truly lossless roundabout of the video clips.

Peter and forum readers: hope this clarifies the issue as far as correctness of my post is concerned.

David Newman · October 15th, 2003, 06:34 PM

Alex,

What is wrong with AVI? Aspect HD is AVI based, After Effects is AVI based, Premiere prefers AVI. It is all AVI.There is nothing *roundabout* about it. :)

The workflow is very easy and simple with Aspect HD -- it is all about saving the editor's time.

Steve Mullen · October 15th, 2003, 08:50 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : Steve, I do not have vested interest in any specific solution, so I'm free to express my opinions.
-->>>

And I have no vested interest in Aspect HD. In fact, 4HDV is in competion with Aspect HD.

Express away, but when your expressions are wrong -- or unclear -- you can expect replys.

I'll leave it to you and David to debate Wavelet verses HUFFYUV-compressed/uncompressed.

I don't know the answer.

But, 4HDV can't lose any quality so the debate isn't relevant for me. :)

October 15th, 2003, 12:47 PM	#1
Peter Richardson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 608	Question for Alex Laskin re: DVD2AVI Hey Alex--I read your informative responses to Hritik regarding a recommended workflow using PremierePro and DVD2 AVI. I will soon be starting a project with this camera (my first time using it) and have a couple questions regarding theworkflow you suggested. 1. I have downloaded the DVD2AVI software but have not installed it yet. Does it interface with Premiere Pro or is it a standalone program? 2. Once I have edited the footage in Premiere Pro can I output back to the JVC cam and be virtually lossless? My guess is that I have to export my AVI from Premiere, and then do a reverse conversion using DVD2AVI back to the .m2t. Is this correct? And if so, how much image quality can I expect to lose in this process? Thanks a bunch for your helpful advice! Peter

October 15th, 2003, 05:08 PM	#6
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : If you do not plan to process your footage with other software, then Aspect HD is probably a good solution. Professionals on this forum did give it high marks.. -->>> Alex I'm not sure why you keep saying this as it's simply not true! The AVI files after capture can be brought into AE and worked on because Aspect HD adds a codec to your PC. Thus you can work with ANY software that allows a rez of 1280x720 at 29.97. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 15th, 2003, 08:50 PM	#11
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : Steve, I do not have vested interest in any specific solution, so I'm free to express my opinions. -->>> And I have no vested interest in Aspect HD. In fact, 4HDV is in competion with Aspect HD. Express away, but when your expressions are wrong -- or unclear -- you can expect replys. I'll leave it to you and David to debate Wavelet verses HUFFYUV-compressed/uncompressed. I don't know the answer. But, 4HDV can't lose any quality so the debate isn't relevant for me. :) __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 15th, 2003, 02:16 PM	#2
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	1. Standalone. Make sure you install HUFFYUV codec first, and then save HUFFYUV-compressed (lossless!) AVIs as output of DVD2AVI. 2. When edit is ready, output UNCOMPRESSED AVI from PPro. (Why uncompressed? PPro has a bug that prevents it from outputting HUFFYUV-compressed AVIs when HUFF files are in timeline and there is at least 1 transition. I reported this bug to Adobe. Try exporting HUFFYUV and you'll see that the transition part is simply gone and sound is out of sync. If you have a different result, please share it with us.) Then convert this AVI to mpeg2 Elementary Stream (m2v extension) using TMPGENC. Then use Womble to multiplex TMPGENC's m2v with whatever the sound you have (ac3 or m2a). Multiplexed result save as m2t. That's it - now you can upload the resulting file back to HD recorder. NOTE: I do not see any reason why use camcorder. Instead, use D-VHS recorder: mine is JVC HD30000. You'll get 5.1 sound playback (if your soundtrack is multichannel, of course). I do encode movies with Dolby 5.1. You'll need DVHSTool utility to upload (archive) your resulting m2t to the 30K device. Hope this helps.

October 15th, 2003, 03:21 PM	#3
Peter Richardson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 608	Thanks Alex for the very complete workflow description. We are still investigating Aspect HD as another solution. Is there any reason (besides cost, and the ability to use Premiere Pro) that you find your workflow to be better than Aspect? Peter

October 15th, 2003, 03:44 PM	#4
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	It depends on your workflow. If you do not plan to process your footage with other software, then Aspect HD is probably a good solution. Professionals on this forum did give it high marks. Note that it is not available for Premiere Pro at this time. I, on the other hand, always use AfterEffects (and some other software) to process parts of the timeline and then re-insert them back into the edit. Because of it, use of Aspect is out of qestion to me, as it would introduce generational loss in footage quality. In my case, I use AVIs for the roundabout PPro-AE-PPro, so there's NO quality loss.

October 15th, 2003, 05:05 PM	#5
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Alex and Peter, Aspect HD is still excellent choice for work between Premiere and After Effects (and back again.) True, CFHD compression technology (comes with Aspect HD) is not mathematically lossless (like HUFYUV) but is visually lossless even after multiple generations of encoding. The multigeneration nature of CFHD is something it was designed to do. Of course there is a huge benefit to CFHD AVIs over HUFFYUV AVIs, CFHD plays 3-4 times faster in Premiere (therefore you get real-time multilayering -- which means zero generation loss.) The one thing After Effects can't do with CFHD files is write them (we would need to create a customer exporter as AE is Video for Window [VfW] based rather than a more modern DirectShow solution.) We recommend using HUFFYUV or uncompressed for After Effects exports. These files can then be loaded in Aspect HD / Premiere. P.S. PPro version Aspect HD is developing well.

October 15th, 2003, 05:21 PM	#7
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Thanks Steve for the backup. :)

October 15th, 2003, 05:59 PM	#8
Peter Richardson Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Portland, Oregon Posts: 608	Thanks for all the great info guys. I think we'll probably go with Aspect HD as the client is fairly high-end and they wouldn't mind springing for the Aspect Software. I definitely appreciate your creative solutions though Alex and would probably employ them if it was my dollar. We'll be importing After Effects animations into our project as well and it's good to know that there is good support for this with Aspect. Thanks again guys and many questions to follow, I'm sure. Peter

October 15th, 2003, 06:20 PM	#9
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	Steve, I do not have vested interest in any specific solution, so I'm free to express my opinions. I do take great care to accurately describe what I know, so to help others the best way possible. You wrote: "Alex I'm not sure why you keep saying this as it's simply not true!" Read my post in its entirety before marking it as untrue. The post was about a roundabout of the clips from timeline to other software like AE and back. To clarify: I didn't say that Aspect doesn't work with other software per se (I remember that you explicitly told us that it does work with AE and other programs). With roundabout workflow, it simply doesn't matter. Read David Newman's post above to see why - you still have to use AVIs, HUFFYUV-compressed or uncompressed to ensure truly lossless roundabout of the video clips. Peter and forum readers: hope this clarifies the issue as far as correctness of my post is concerned.

October 15th, 2003, 06:34 PM	#10
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	Alex, What is wrong with AVI? Aspect HD is AVI based, After Effects is AVI based, Premiere prefers AVI. It is all AVI.There is nothing roundabout about it. :) The workflow is very easy and simple with Aspect HD -- it is all about saving the editor's time.