4HDV users, post your thoughts! at DVinfo.net

Heath McKnight · October 3rd, 2003, 09:22 PM

I'm very excited about Steve's 4HDV, but we've heard nothing from anyone who has it and what they think.

Please post up, so those of us, who want to cut on FCP/Apple, can know what you think!

heath

Darren Kelly · October 4th, 2003, 03:23 PM

Steve's plug in is a little different than a plugin in the traditional sense.

First of all it is a collection of shareware and freeware applications that Steve shows you where to go to get them. He does send you 2 small apps that need their names changed to "plugin" to the shareware apps. I am not clear what they do exactly and I am not sure they are required, but I did it anyway.

He has spent a considerable amount of time preparing a workflow for using these applications to import your HD1/HD10 footage into the mac.

In essence, you use these 4 external apps to capture then convert to files that Final Cut Pro - or any Mac based editing app for that matter - You create 2 different copies of the files, one is a DV file for editing in realtime in FCP, the other is a full resolution HD file you later point your timeline and project file to so you can render out a finished movie in HD. In other words, you do the work in DV, saving time in the edit session and then have the computer rebuild your project as you sleep or watch TV or.....

He is working very hard on methods to get this file back to the camera and DVHS deck and has a few suggestions, which many people have read about on this forum in other threads.

Also included in his package is a shooting guide - tips and tricks to get the most out of the cameras. I have not read this, so I can't expand on it any further.

It's a challenging package to install even with the step by step guide to downloading and installing. I have had some success with it, but as I am more comfortable with real time hardware solutions and have the luxury of operating a professional video production company, I chose to go with a KONA HD card. Even with nearly $12K in expenses so far, there are challenges too.

Others have emailed me with similar comments. I hope our new JumpStart Guide can shed some light and make it easier to accomplish. We are considering a how to section specifically on Steve's package.

There are new plugins or mini apps coming for the mac that will make editing our HD footage just as easy as Cineform makes for the PC guys. We will be showing in detail how to operate both those packages.

We will be showing a new mac package in the soon to be released JumpStart Guide.

Hope this helps

Steve Mullen · October 4th, 2003, 04:28 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : I am not clear what they do exactly and I am not sure they are required, but I did it anyway. -->>>

The JVC file format for MPEG-2 is incompatible with Apple's MPEG-2. So while you can capture and demux on a Mac, you can't use the resulting MPEG-2 file with QT or FCP. HDVbridge solves this problem.

Likewise, while you can generate an SD MPEG-2 file on the Mac, you can't generate an HD MPEG-2 file. So HDVviaduct enables HD output.

OK -- you can spend $5000 on the Heuris HD encoder!

So without these plug-ins, it's no go on a Mac. (Although, as some have done you can use a PC to do the capture.)

If you spend $5000 on the Heuris encoder you can record back to D-VHS, but not to the camcorder.

Using the Womble MPEG2VCR with VPC you can encode for a recording to the camcorder, but not to D-VHS. I felt recording back the the camcorder was a must!

I do expect Apple and others to provide a DVHSCap like function that captures and converts to uncompressed video. Then you will edit with uncompressed video. The problem is that you will need a dual G5 to play video smoothly. And NO realtime FX. And Terabytes of storage on a RAID.

My goal was to make something that could be run on G3 or G4 with FCP v3 or v4. And I avoid uncompressed video. In fact, there is a 10X reduction in file size so you can move your proxy video and audio to a laptop. (Keep the MPEG-2 on a FW drive until your edit is done.)

Darron's right the 4HDV process has multiple steps. If you want simple, and if you have the money, buy a fast PC and buy Aspect HD. I've been using it for a couple of weeks and love it! There's fundamental advanced technology at work here. I don't expect anything like it for a Mac until FCP V5 or later.

Darren Kelly · October 4th, 2003, 04:31 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly :

We will be showing a new mac package in the soon to be released JumpStart Guide.
-->>>

It does for the mac what Cineform does for the PC.

Cheers

Alex Raskin · October 4th, 2003, 04:59 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : Using the Womble MPEG2VCR with VPC you can encode for a recording to the camcorder, but not to D-VHS. -->>>

I use Womble on a PC, and:

the resulting MPEG2-TS m2t file is then easily transferable to D-VHS using the cam's bundled software (it captures AND outputs back, either to camera or to D-VHS player. Mine is DH30000.)

Steve, do you know how to convert mpg into .m2t if mpg has been encoded with multi-channel sound?

I can encoded mpg with Premiere that outputs 5.1 channel Dolby - but then Womble does not like the audio stream and won't convert it into TS.

Seems like Womble doesn't understand anything but stereo sound stream.

Alternatives?

Steve Mullen · October 4th, 2003, 07:32 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin :

Steve, do you know how to convert mpg into .m2t if mpg has been encoded with multi-channel sound?

I can encoded mpg with Premiere that outputs 5.1 channel Dolby - but then Womble does not like the audio stream and won't convert it into TS.

Seems like Womble doesn't understand anything but stereo sound stream.

-->>>

I only use Womble to convert PS to TS. I encode with another Mac application in which my HDVviaduct plug-in is used. I think I am free to encode with AC3. BUT, that's stereo AC-3. Don't have any idea how to get 5.1 into AC-3.

Vegas does 5.1 and will encode it!

Heath McKnight · October 4th, 2003, 10:32 PM

Being a die hard Apple user (tried PCs, had no luck), I'm dismayed to learn it may be another year to edit with this camera. To pay for the camera, I'm shooting projects with friends' XL-1 cameras! Even the guy helping me pay for the camera is getting irritated.

heath

Paul Mogg · October 5th, 2003, 01:08 PM

<<Don't have any idea how to get 5.1 into AC-3.>>

A,pack, the utility that comes with DVDSP on the Mac will encode 5.1 into AC3.

Steve Mullen · October 5th, 2003, 02:09 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Being a die hard Apple user (tried PCs, had no luck), I'm dismayed to learn it may be another year to edit with this camera. To pay for the camera, I'm shooting projects with friends' XL-1 cameras! Even the guy helping me pay for the camera is getting irritated.

heath -->>>

if you are hoping for free I don't think so. You at least will have to buy a G5 and FCP v4.

Heath McKnight · October 5th, 2003, 02:40 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen: if you are hoping for free I don't think so. You at least will have to buy a G5 and FCP v4. -->>>

Got the G5.

Alex Raskin · October 5th, 2003, 02:46 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : Vegas does 5.1 and will encode it! -->>>

Yes, but will Vegas encode directly into the Transport stream m2t, or into the Program Stream mpg?

If it only outputs the 5.1 Dolby sound-multiplexed PS mpg, then my experience with similarly-encoded file from Premiere Pro is that Womble will *reject* it.

Alas, no way to get the Transport Stream and we are stuck.

Right?

Steve Mullen · October 5th, 2003, 08:15 PM

If you are inputting a Program Stream and using Womble simply to convert from PS to TS -- it shouldn't even look at the encoding of the audio file.

But maybe it does.

Christopher C. Murphy · October 5th, 2003, 09:08 PM

Heath,

I have not successfully gotten the 4HDV to work. I've got a G4, 1 gig ram with OSX. It's just not working past the demuxing and I don't want to spend more cash on womble. But, I may have to...not to happy about it.

Anyone else having problems with 4HDV? Specifically the demuxing on OSX? If so, what workaround do you have - if any?

Chris

Steve Mullen · October 5th, 2003, 11:23 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : Heath,

Anyone else having problems with 4HDV? Specifically the demuxing on OSX? If so, what workaround do you have - if any?

Chris -->>>

As I remember, when you wrote asking for help a week ago, it looked as though you had "permissions" problem on your Mac that prevented the demuxer from running--or running correctly.

Instead of working through this problem with me, you said you were going to skip this step and use a PC program to demux. I never heard from you again.

If you want to use 4HDV -- I can help you fix what's wrong on your Mac.

Demuxing works fine. Also, Womble isn't required for editing.

Heath McKnight · October 7th, 2003, 08:38 PM

I wonder if we really ARE a year or two ahead of the curve with this camera, as far as Apple is concerned. But it doesn't make sense, as too many major video camera manufacturers are going to use this HDV format. I think Apple, in their super secrecy, are developing something to support it.

...at least I hope so...

heath

October 3rd, 2003, 09:22 PM	#1
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	4HDV users, post your thoughts! I'm very excited about Steve's 4HDV, but we've heard nothing from anyone who has it and what they think. Please post up, so those of us, who want to cut on FCP/Apple, can know what you think! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 4th, 2003, 03:23 PM	#2
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	Steve's plug in is a little different than a plugin in the traditional sense. First of all it is a collection of shareware and freeware applications that Steve shows you where to go to get them. He does send you 2 small apps that need their names changed to "plugin" to the shareware apps. I am not clear what they do exactly and I am not sure they are required, but I did it anyway. He has spent a considerable amount of time preparing a workflow for using these applications to import your HD1/HD10 footage into the mac. In essence, you use these 4 external apps to capture then convert to files that Final Cut Pro - or any Mac based editing app for that matter - You create 2 different copies of the files, one is a DV file for editing in realtime in FCP, the other is a full resolution HD file you later point your timeline and project file to so you can render out a finished movie in HD. In other words, you do the work in DV, saving time in the edit session and then have the computer rebuild your project as you sleep or watch TV or..... He is working very hard on methods to get this file back to the camera and DVHS deck and has a few suggestions, which many people have read about on this forum in other threads. Also included in his package is a shooting guide - tips and tricks to get the most out of the cameras. I have not read this, so I can't expand on it any further. It's a challenging package to install even with the step by step guide to downloading and installing. I have had some success with it, but as I am more comfortable with real time hardware solutions and have the luxury of operating a professional video production company, I chose to go with a KONA HD card. Even with nearly $12K in expenses so far, there are challenges too. Others have emailed me with similar comments. I hope our new JumpStart Guide can shed some light and make it easier to accomplish. We are considering a how to section specifically on Steve's package. There are new plugins or mini apps coming for the mac that will make editing our HD footage just as easy as Cineform makes for the PC guys. We will be showing in detail how to operate both those packages. We will be showing a new mac package in the soon to be released JumpStart Guide. Hope this helps __________________ Darren Kelly

October 4th, 2003, 04:28 PM	#3
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : I am not clear what they do exactly and I am not sure they are required, but I did it anyway. -->>> The JVC file format for MPEG-2 is incompatible with Apple's MPEG-2. So while you can capture and demux on a Mac, you can't use the resulting MPEG-2 file with QT or FCP. HDVbridge solves this problem. Likewise, while you can generate an SD MPEG-2 file on the Mac, you can't generate an HD MPEG-2 file. So HDVviaduct enables HD output. OK -- you can spend $5000 on the Heuris HD encoder! So without these plug-ins, it's no go on a Mac. (Although, as some have done you can use a PC to do the capture.) If you spend $5000 on the Heuris encoder you can record back to D-VHS, but not to the camcorder. Using the Womble MPEG2VCR with VPC you can encode for a recording to the camcorder, but not to D-VHS. I felt recording back the the camcorder was a must! I do expect Apple and others to provide a DVHSCap like function that captures and converts to uncompressed video. Then you will edit with uncompressed video. The problem is that you will need a dual G5 to play video smoothly. And NO realtime FX. And Terabytes of storage on a RAID. My goal was to make something that could be run on G3 or G4 with FCP v3 or v4. And I avoid uncompressed video. In fact, there is a 10X reduction in file size so you can move your proxy video and audio to a laptop. (Keep the MPEG-2 on a FW drive until your edit is done.) Darron's right the 4HDV process has multiple steps. If you want simple, and if you have the money, buy a fast PC and buy Aspect HD. I've been using it for a couple of weeks and love it! There's fundamental advanced technology at work here. I don't expect anything like it for a Mac until FCP V5 or later. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 4th, 2003, 04:31 PM	#4
Darren Kelly Major Player Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver Posts: 351	<<<-- Originally posted by Darren Kelly : We will be showing a new mac package in the soon to be released JumpStart Guide. -->>> It does for the mac what Cineform does for the PC. Cheers __________________ Darren Kelly

October 4th, 2003, 07:32 PM	#6
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Alex Raskin : Steve, do you know how to convert mpg into .m2t if mpg has been encoded with multi-channel sound? I can encoded mpg with Premiere that outputs 5.1 channel Dolby - but then Womble does not like the audio stream and won't convert it into TS. Seems like Womble doesn't understand anything but stereo sound stream. -->>> I only use Womble to convert PS to TS. I encode with another Mac application in which my HDVviaduct plug-in is used. I think I am free to encode with AC3. BUT, that's stereo AC-3. Don't have any idea how to get 5.1 into AC-3. Vegas does 5.1 and will encode it! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 4th, 2003, 04:59 PM	#5
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : Using the Womble MPEG2VCR with VPC you can encode for a recording to the camcorder, but not to D-VHS. -->>> I use Womble on a PC, and: the resulting MPEG2-TS m2t file is then easily transferable to D-VHS using the cam's bundled software (it captures AND outputs back, either to camera or to D-VHS player. Mine is DH30000.) Steve, do you know how to convert mpg into .m2t if mpg has been encoded with multi-channel sound? I can encoded mpg with Premiere that outputs 5.1 channel Dolby - but then Womble does not like the audio stream and won't convert it into TS. Seems like Womble doesn't understand anything but stereo sound stream. Alternatives?

October 4th, 2003, 10:32 PM	#7
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Being a die hard Apple user (tried PCs, had no luck), I'm dismayed to learn it may be another year to edit with this camera. To pay for the camera, I'm shooting projects with friends' XL-1 cameras! Even the guy helping me pay for the camera is getting irritated. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 5th, 2003, 01:08 PM	#8
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	<<Don't have any idea how to get 5.1 into AC-3.>> A,pack, the utility that comes with DVDSP on the Mac will encode 5.1 into AC3. __________________ Paul

October 5th, 2003, 02:09 PM	#9
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Being a die hard Apple user (tried PCs, had no luck), I'm dismayed to learn it may be another year to edit with this camera. To pay for the camera, I'm shooting projects with friends' XL-1 cameras! Even the guy helping me pay for the camera is getting irritated. heath -->>> if you are hoping for free I don't think so. You at least will have to buy a G5 and FCP v4. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 5th, 2003, 02:40 PM	#10
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen: if you are hoping for free I don't think so. You at least will have to buy a G5 and FCP v4. -->>> Got the G5. __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

October 5th, 2003, 02:46 PM	#11
Alex Raskin Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 1,435	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : Vegas does 5.1 and will encode it! -->>> Yes, but will Vegas encode directly into the Transport stream m2t, or into the Program Stream mpg? If it only outputs the 5.1 Dolby sound-multiplexed PS mpg, then my experience with similarly-encoded file from Premiere Pro is that Womble will reject it. Alas, no way to get the Transport Stream and we are stuck. Right?

October 5th, 2003, 08:15 PM	#12
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	If you are inputting a Program Stream and using Womble simply to convert from PS to TS -- it shouldn't even look at the encoding of the audio file. But maybe it does. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 5th, 2003, 09:08 PM	#13
Christopher C. Murphy Trustee Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,707	Heath, I have not successfully gotten the 4HDV to work. I've got a G4, 1 gig ram with OSX. It's just not working past the demuxing and I don't want to spend more cash on womble. But, I may have to...not to happy about it. Anyone else having problems with 4HDV? Specifically the demuxing on OSX? If so, what workaround do you have - if any? Chris

October 5th, 2003, 11:23 PM	#14
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Christopher C. Murphy : Heath, Anyone else having problems with 4HDV? Specifically the demuxing on OSX? If so, what workaround do you have - if any? Chris -->>> As I remember, when you wrote asking for help a week ago, it looked as though you had "permissions" problem on your Mac that prevented the demuxer from running--or running correctly. Instead of working through this problem with me, you said you were going to skip this step and use a PC program to demux. I never heard from you again. If you want to use 4HDV -- I can help you fix what's wrong on your Mac. Demuxing works fine. Also, Womble isn't required for editing. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

October 7th, 2003, 08:38 PM	#15
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	I wonder if we really ARE a year or two ahead of the curve with this camera, as far as Apple is concerned. But it doesn't make sense, as too many major video camera manufacturers are going to use this HDV format. I think Apple, in their super secrecy, are developing something to support it. ...at least I hope so... heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog