Need some clarifications

[Heath McKnight]

Panther will have it? That makes sense, since SDK17 is under the developer's page.

For now (attention Steve Mullen!), I need:

1. SDK 17.

2. QT 6 mpeg 2 encoder.

3. 4HDV.

Or just one or two only? I'm on the fence right now about buying 4 HDV, because I'm really broke with my DVD release coming up. No one said it would be cheap or easy... ;-)

heath

[David Newman]

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Fordham :
<<<--Sums up the question I guess. But provides no answers. -->>>

No, I disagree. Once you have extracted the data is uncompressed form, it is just the some as any HD source. I really wasn't avoiding the question. If you are asking how to edit HD independent of the issue of HDV, that is a completely different question. For the Mac you should look at 4HDV for answers, there you can use FCP for editing, for the PC you can purchase a complete solution (Aspect HD) then use Adobe Premiere for editing.

<<<--Which off the shelf components? -->>>

Aspect HD of course. :) If you are trying to piece together a very low cost solution for yourself, it can be done. Although CineForm does has some exclusives today, you should be able to capture, convert to HUFFYUV or uncompressed, then edit and export to a variety of formats. You will have to collect components from multiple vendors to do it. If you went with our system, things are much easier, integrated, and with real-time on-line editing.

<<<--This uncompressed can be placed in an format necessary for post production work.
OK. How? -->>>

The export timeline options under Adobe Premiere (I assume FCP has the same.)

<<<--This HD data can be upconverted (1080i) or downconverted (SD 16x9 anamorphic DVD) as needed.
OK. How?-->>>

Again Adobe Premiere exporters.

<<<--There is nothing magically here, the only trick is making tools that existed before HDV (FCP, Premiere, etc.) behave correctly with the new data.-->
<<--Indeed. Which is why I'm asking the questions above. The only magic would be if HDV did actually work with todays' existing components without requiring a dozen work arounds. -->>

Not always possible as we have to move forward in technology sometimes. Early NLE systems were based on incompatible variations of MJPEG, when DV came it didn't work in those NLEs. These camera's are MPEG2TS based with an increase in resolution, this will require change. Fortunately the MPEG2TS is an existing HD standard, greatly easing it use (more so than the early days of DV.) A small company like CineForm can be nibble and get a solution to market quickly, it will take larger vendors more time. In the future there will be more vendors providing direct HDV support.

David.

[Steve Mullen]

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : For now (attention Steve Mullen!), I need:

1. SDK 17.
2. QT 6 mpeg 2 encoder.
3. 4HDV.

heath -->>>

You need to pay for:

4HDV ($100)
Apple decoder ($20)
ffmpegX ($15)
FCP v3 or v4--you've got

So, $135 to edit your HD material. What a deal!

Of course, if you win the lotterty a DPG5 would be nice + 2 Cinema Screens! :)

Plus the Shooting Guide will provide all the info you need to get the most out of the HD10.

[Heath McKnight]

To be honest, I'd rather have the guide. but editing is important, too. ;-)

<<4HDV ($100)
Apple decoder ($20)
ffmpegX ($15)
FCP v3 or v4>>

Got the decoder (gotta find it on my harddrives), but what is ffmpegx? Will that dump stuff to the camera, or is that still a pricey plug-in?

If I win the lottery (or lotto, since the FL lotto can get up to $80 million some times), I'll probably just buy the latest CineAlta! And make 9:04 AM, my next film, with no worries of where the money is coming from. Of course, I'll also bank and invest the rest, so I don't lose it all. (Anyone ever watch those stories where idiots win the lotto, like the scumbag who was in jail for being a deadbeat parent, and they invest in glass dragons, horses and swords? Morons...)

Thanks, Steve. I look forward to your answers that Jon posted.

heath

ps-Taking credit card orders yet? If you want, try this out:

http://2checkout.com/

My friend is having no problems selling his t-shirts there.

[Steve Mullen]

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : what is ffmpegx? Will that dump stuff to the camera, or is that still a pricey plug-in? -->>>

It's an SD MPEG-2 Encoder. My HDVviaduct plug-in converts it to HD output.

Back to the camera?

I've done it. Need to confirm the exact steps. And, to check if a transfer can be made from the camcorder to D-VHS. I expect so.

But I'm without a camcorder. Anyone in NYC? I need one for a couple of hours.

[Heath McKnight]

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : <<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : what is ffmpegx? Will that dump stuff to the camera, or is that still a pricey plug-in? -->>>

It's an SD MPEG-2 Encoder. My HDVviaduct plug-in converts it to HD output.

Back to the camera?

I've done it. Need to confirm the exact steps. And, to check if a transfer can be made from the camcorder to D-VHS. I expect so.

But I'm without a camcorder. Anyone in NYC? I need one for a couple of hours. -->>>

My buddy up there is visiting Florida soon, and will be shooting a film with me. I'm going to ship it up to him, if you want to maybe hook up. Where do I get the ffmpegx thing?

heath

[Jay Nemeth]

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Fordham :

Again, I'm looking for very straight forward answers to my straight forward questions. Nothing else please.

Thank you. -->>>

Jon,

To answer all of your questions would involve summarizing most of the threads on this board. While I try to share any info I have about this camera, I don't think anyone has the time to bring you from zero to full speed on this camera in one thread. All the info is here.

But regarding editing, it doesn't require a dozen work arounds unless you are trying to cram this square peg into existing round holes.

1. If you have an existing editing system such as discreet fire* or an HDCAM deck that only accepts HD-SDI, use the Sony HKPF 101 A/D converter to convert analog component HD signal out of camera on playback to HD-SDI. Cross convert 720p to 1080i if necessary. After editing, output HD-SDI to HDCAM, D5, or DVCPro-HD

or....

2. Buy Aspect HD and Premeire 6.5 and start editing, no workarounds required. Import and output to camera or DVHS.

There are several DPs, including myself, posting to this board who are doing exhaustive testing and evaluation of this camera to find out what uses it has in the real world. Get your hands on one and you'll get much better answers to your questions. The purchase price is equal to a 2 day rental of a Panavision package.

Jay

[Jon Fordham]

Jay,

Thank you. However, I'm not looking to go from zero to full speed in 3 seconds and one question.

I have browsed these boards extensively and found very little useful infromation. And alot of what seems to me to be mis-information. I'm looking for someone who has actually done some of this and can tell me based on experience that it worked or didn't work and why.

What I'm not looking for is a post like the one by the individual who stated he "connected a Sony F900 and a JVC HD10 to waveform monitor and Sony 24" HD monitor and they looked pretty close". Someone like that who can't tell me how they connected the cameras to the monitors, how they switched back and forth between signals, etc. Such posts have what seem to be interesting information without actually providing us with any real technical description information. He might as well have said I put my HD10 next to a 35mm camera it looked the same. Because that's about as useful as that kind of post is.


You mention that I can use the Sony HKPF 101 A/D converter to convert analog component HD signal out of camera on playback to HD-SDI. Have you tried this? Chris has and it didn't work. I'm well aware that human error is always a possibility. I've even seen my "Almighty Local 600" friend Chris spend 20 minutes trying to figure out why he wasn't receiving a picture on a monitor only discover he had an air gap! I've made such mistakes myself from time to time. But by tracing my steps, I can always figure out what happened. So, did the Sony HKPF 101 A/D converter work? Do the analogue component outputs output the full resolution 720/30P HD or upconverted 1080/60i HD signal? This is the main point I'm hung up on. The manual isn't clear. And aside from plug ins and boards that people say they can't afford, I haven't found anybody who can tell me they've done it and how.

And while I appreciate those who do like to spend money buying a ton of programs and plug ins for their own personal projects or hobbyist enjoyment, I am not an editor. Nor am I someone who spends money on purchasing a ton of new gear just to use a camera. In fact, I still find it strange that people buy cameras to pursue their own personal production aspirations. Like you said, the purchase price of the camera is equal to a couple days rental of the Panavised F900. I think most people on this board would jump at the opportunity to shoot one of thier personal projects with the F900. So why did they spend their money on buying a camera that didn't put them anywhere closer to having a HD film inthe can?

I can't very well recommend to a producer that we work with a camera system that isn't going to fit into our currently available workflow. However I'm still always interested in finding great new tools to do my job.

Sorry, I'm getting of topic here...

Definitely let me know what you find following your exhaustive testing. I'm very interested in hearing what the possibilities are. My current search for some answers was sparked by the possibility of working with Heath on a very small personal project that we could use to give his HD10 a test spin. So if and when that happens, I'll have my hands on the rig and can get a better feel for what it is capable of. I'd just like to have a solid understanding of what is possible and the best way to approach it before spending my time.

Jay, I'm not trying to give you or anybody else a hard time.

I am curious to find someone with experience who can share a proven workflow.

Thank you.

[Eric Bilodeau]

Jon, for the moment, on the part of our feature we are supposed to test the workflow of a cinewave or AJA system in the coming weeks with footage from the JVC and from the varicam but it is unclear when these tests will be done since we have other things in priority. I will keep you informed on that. On the other hand, Darren Kelly (the guy who wrote "connected a Sony F900 and a JVC HD10 to waveform monitor and Sony 24" HD monitor and they looked pretty close") was supposed to buy an AJA Kona HD card with converters (AJA brand I suppose). He is a methodical person with a lot of knowledge on the buisness since he has been there since the 70's. Maybe you should email him or something, he is a resourcefull guy. Other than that I know of no other plans to test a high end HD gear for now with the HD10. I can surely tell you that we connected the components output to a JVC 20" HD monitor with component in and it worked perfectly, recognised the signal changes either in upconversion or downconversion instantly.

[John Eriksson]

The HD edit workflow:
1.Connect a firewire board to your computer, and install the drivers.

2.Get your movies from the with the provided capture device.

3.Watch your m2t .ts movies with the VideoLAN player:
http://www.videolan.org/

4.(here comes the tricky part) Demux the clips that you want to keep using HDTVtoMPEG2 1.09.
http://www.midwinter.com/~bcooley/
http://www.digital-digest.com/dvd/downloads/hdtvtompeg2.html

5.Start Sonic Foundry Vegas 4.0.

6.Choose File -> Import files/media

7.Choose the right destination, here if you can´t see the files press *.* to see all files.

8. Select the files you want, press ok.

9.Vegas ask for the mainconcept HD codec, and if you registrate the VEGAS software you will get the codec for free. I registrated and restarted VEGAS.

10. You can now edit HD in VEGAS and you can also convert it into DVD and to .avi -files for usage in after effects or combustion.
This way is a pain in the butt, so I would like to recomend Cineform Aspect HD for fast easy editing in Premiere 6.5 and PRO
Here is a link to mainconcept:
http://www.mainconcept.com/index_flash.shtml
GOOD LUCK!!
/j

[Heath McKnight]

Interesting stuff!

Jon Fordham, a lot of us can't afford to rent the CineAlta for a couple of days then pay for downconversions. That's where the prices go up. Then again, add on the costs of buying all the gear to edit with the HD10, and the price is probably the same.

heath

[Jay Nemeth]

Hi Jon,

You're right, there is some misinformation on this board, mostly from people who haven't used the camera. However, it seems to be the best place to get what good info there is.

Unfortunately, I haven't personally tried the HKPF 101 conversion. Someone on the AVS forum who works in the industry has done a succesful transfer to HDCAM, but I don't recall if it was with the Sony converter or another. We have a HDWM2000 sitting in the machine room where we edit, but everything is HD-SDI. And in fact, this is the irony of our test project. We have access to the discreet fire* edit suite which is capable of editing uncompressed HD, but the only way in is SDI. The other problem is that their particular fire* system can only hold 20 min. of HD footage. So we are offlining our project on a $500,000 system using the 480i downconversion we did onto DigiBeta. Our plans are to online with Aspect HD.

A little bit about our project and why we are doing it. As a filmmaker, I have been faced with the reality that just because a project gets financed doesn't mean it's a project worth doing. I have seen many scripts that are worthy of being produced, yet the people peddling them either have no marketing skills or are approaching the wrong people. I shoot alot of film where the crew and I look at each other asking, "why are we here?" with Platinums and all the lenses and cranes and a 40' grip and lighting, etc. The only reason we are there is for the paycheck. Indie filmmakers have always had the cost obstacle in their way of making movies. The f900 has knocked down some of those barriers, but it can still be too expensive for some projects.

Before I ramble too much more, I think we all realize what an exciting time this is as huge advances are made in image aquisition. We're not quite there yet, but soon almost anyone can be a Robert Rodriguez and own cameras and edit a movie in their living room that is of acceptable quality to the masses. Of course talent will weed out the players from the wannabes, but anyone can try to make a movie if they choose.

So our test project is short, it has actors and a story and we finished principal photography last week. For me, it is a vehicle to apply my craft as a cinematographer using the JVC camera. The camera is extremely difficult to use due to it's lack of fully manual exposure controls, the in-camera sound is odd and their are the other typical problems of using a tiny DV camera to make a movie.

Some quick technical tidbits: I use a Sony 8044q or 1354q monitor with 16:9 capability to monitor the 480i downconversion while I am shooting and framing / setting exposure. I use a JVC HV-M260u HiDef 26" monitor for playback of takes. This monitor is no longer manufactured and unfortunately, only accepts 1080i analog. So I cross convert the 720p/30 to 1080/60i in the camera for the playback. I wish I could see the native 720p on playback, but this project is literally a NO-BUDGET deal, so we use what we can get. And yes, the HD analog output is full resolution 720/60p or 1080/60i

Most of the current HD field monitors only accept HD-SDI input, so finding an older analog monitor is important. I suppose you could find a consumer monitor if you liked the image, but it probably wouldn't have SMPTE C phosphors and fine pitch, etc.

I think it's still too early to tell a producer, "Yes, we can do this with this camera and everything will be fine". We still need some more test spins.

Ultimately, when our test project is done, I want to project it using a digital cinema projector in a theatrical venue. Not a consumer or industrial projector but the same 1080p projection you see when watching "Once upon a time in Mexico". Only at that time, if the format doesn't draw attention to itself, will I know what the true story telling potential of this camera is.

Jay

[Jay Nemeth]

One other thing that I mentioned in another thread, is that I'm doing a shoot in a couple of weeks with the f900 and I'm going to bolt the JVC camera to the top and double shoot. Of course I'll be lighting for the contrast ratio of the Sony, but it will be a comparison of some value. I will just need to get the converter to HD SDI so I can see both images on the fire* system.

[Heath McKnight]

Jay,

Don't forget that the HD10 is still close to auto exposure.

heath

[Jay Nemeth]

Yea, I wish I could forget, but the camera is always reminding me. NDs and exposure lock seems to hold everything where you want it.

Jay