Nosferatu/ Metropolis at DVinfo.net

Ken Hodson · August 29th, 2003, 01:12 PM

You may ask yourself, "what does that have to do with the JVC HD?"
Well everything.
the undeniable fact as to why thoses movies are still around today? Skill and Resolution!
Yes not to the resolution level that film later develped but good enough to still be watched and admired today some 80 years later.
Did it take the film-maker skill to get the most out of those cameras? You bet your ass it did. You want to talk about a tendancy to over expose, and a myriad of other technical deficiencies including having to be hand cranked. Yet those cameras made features because it gave people the resolution to make moving pictures believable.
The nay-sayers of the JVC HD camera either do not have the technicall skill or energy to get the most from this camera, or have vested interest in the expensive equipment they own. I know a lot of XL1 owners who are oblivious to any other cameras as their XL1 can do no wrong. The DCX-100 owners have recently jumped into that catagory.
Yes the camera has its deficiencies but they are laughable considering its price and the resolution it affords.
I believe in 20 years we will look back on an abundance of HD cam idie films, with their distinct look, with great fondness. I believe this camera will change the face of filmaking.

"Art-- authentic art-- is simple. But simplicity demands the maximum of artistry. The camera is the director's pencil. It should have the greatest possible mobility in order to record the most fleeting harmony of atmosphere. It is important that the mechanical factor should not stand between the spectator and the film."
F.W. Murnau, Director Nasferatu

Kevin A. Sturges · August 29th, 2003, 08:04 PM

I believe you are right. The footage this camera takes will still hold up and be watchable 20 years from now. And that, succinctly is what makes it such a breakthrough product.

No DV cam can make that claim. Low budget film makers now, finally for the first time, have an affordable tool that will enable them to capture, edit, and distribute on a consumer budget, and compete with the big budget players. This is a major breakthrough! Watch the revolution begin now.

Has anyone thought about the possibility of MicroSoft WM9 set top DVD players coming out in the next few months? Think about it - you will have an entire aquisition process to cheaply create store and widely distribute true HD material.

Did you know right now there is the reality of at least 5 set top Divx Mpeg4 capable players enjoying sales under the radar of the mass consumer? All it will take is a little push, and the right licsensing from MicroSoft, and we'll be there.

Frank Granovski · August 29th, 2003, 08:34 PM

Ken, that movie can be viewed today only because it has been digitally fixed. Film was the only motion type media available in those days. If that type of movie was shot today, they would most likely still use film, for its higher resolution, or at the least, the high-end HD stuff from Sony or Pana, or from that high-end Viper, I would think.

Ken Hodson · August 29th, 2003, 09:53 PM

What do you mean "digitally fixed"?

Those 2 movies have been watched in one form or another for over 80 years.

Frank Granovski · August 29th, 2003, 09:58 PM

Correct. But the film was cut and cut until little was left, and the film stock was in pretty bad shape. I suggest using the search function, and read through that massive thread about the German sci-fi masterpiece, "Metropolis."

Ken Hodson · August 29th, 2003, 10:14 PM

I don't get your point?
Nosferatu has been available on 8mm, super 8, 16mm, I'm sure 35mm, vhs, and now DVD. But that isn't the point of the post.
It wasn't a digital vs. analog rant. It was simply a comparison of what makes those films stand-up. Was it their colour? Dolby 5.1 surround?
No. It was the skill of an artist and tool with resolution high enough to make the moving pictures breath life. Like the end quote says,
"The camera is the director's pencil" and this is the first affordable pencil ever that does not draw like a broken crayon.

Frank Granovski · August 29th, 2003, 10:56 PM

Ken, are you talking about the German sci-fi masterpiece called "Metropolis?"

Ken Hodson · August 29th, 2003, 11:19 PM

Uh, yes.

Frank Granovski · August 30th, 2003, 12:01 AM

Okay, we're both talking apples. There have been a number of "fixes" or versions of this movie. The latest one came out about a year or so.

Ken Hodson · August 30th, 2003, 02:25 AM

Yes I am talking about those two 1920'ish features. They are a fantastic example of motion picture art. The cameras used to film them had sever defincencies in many areas especially colour and sound ;>)
Those movies are some of the first examples of visual texture high enough to captivate an audience. And now finally we have a tool that delivers artistic resolution. Coupled with the level PC's and NLE's and such filmaking tools are at these days, it is a revolution!

By the way I like your link. Check out http://www.universal-tao.com/master_chia.html he has some very cool books on internal energy. they have them local @ Banyan Books.

Frank Granovski · August 30th, 2003, 03:14 AM

Yes, Banyan is a great place for books in Vancouver. They also carry my baguazhang book. I just live at 3rd and Yew, so Banyan is nearby. I'll pop over sometime and check out that author.

Shawn Mielke · September 2nd, 2003, 02:06 AM

"The cameras used to film them had sevr defencies in many areas especially colour and sound ;>)"

Uhh, yes, just like the hd10. Or any dv cam for that matter. And great films have been shot on dv cams (The Cruise, Julien Donkey Boy, Waking Life). At least two of the aforementioned films were shot on vx1000s. "Artistic resolution"? Psychobabble. Give me a break. Resolution has nothing to do with art. True artists use anything and everything in the world around them, reflecting it, seeing it for us for the first time, etc., getting acclaim and internationally released, or not. Make your movie, using the most appropriate tools available to you. Or don't. But don't think that more or less resolution is going to make or break your revolution. The world is a far more interesting place than that.

Ken Hodson · September 2nd, 2003, 02:17 AM

Great art can be done with any camera. I never said otherwise.
My point is, with this camera for the first time ever an affordable cam has the resolution to NOT stand in the way of an artist.
No matter how great ones artistic vision, if its shot on DV, its gonna look like DV, crappy.

Also the quote you clipped was ment to be a joke. Those camera had no colour or sound! I was just proving my point that great film is not reliant on just the camera. Odd that you would then accuse me of not knowing this?

And if your really saying resolution plays no part in the artistic quality of the movie why do you use DV gear? Why not stay with VHS-C or 8mm? An artist always wants the best tool he can afford. Film is the pinacle tool for this art because? Yes its resolution. And this camera gets me the closest for a reasonable amount of money.

Frank Granovski · September 2nd, 2003, 03:55 AM

Quote:

Resolution has nothing to do with art.

Huh? Okay, if you say so. But my money's on Ken:

Quote:

And if your really saying resolution plays no part in the artistic quality of the movie why do you use DV gear? Why not stay with VHS-C or 8mm?

Brad Hawkins · September 2nd, 2003, 08:20 AM

Shawn, I really don't think that Waking Life is a good example of a DV film. True, it was captured in DV, but in the end it is an animated film. Every single frame of the film has been painted in post production. The DV camera was used simply because it was all they needed to begin the painting process.

Brad

August 29th, 2003, 01:12 PM	#1
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Nosferatu/ Metropolis You may ask yourself, "what does that have to do with the JVC HD?" Well everything. the undeniable fact as to why thoses movies are still around today? Skill and Resolution! Yes not to the resolution level that film later develped but good enough to still be watched and admired today some 80 years later. Did it take the film-maker skill to get the most out of those cameras? You bet your ass it did. You want to talk about a tendancy to over expose, and a myriad of other technical deficiencies including having to be hand cranked. Yet those cameras made features because it gave people the resolution to make moving pictures believable. The nay-sayers of the JVC HD camera either do not have the technicall skill or energy to get the most from this camera, or have vested interest in the expensive equipment they own. I know a lot of XL1 owners who are oblivious to any other cameras as their XL1 can do no wrong. The DCX-100 owners have recently jumped into that catagory. Yes the camera has its deficiencies but they are laughable considering its price and the resolution it affords. I believe in 20 years we will look back on an abundance of HD cam idie films, with their distinct look, with great fondness. I believe this camera will change the face of filmaking. "Art-- authentic art-- is simple. But simplicity demands the maximum of artistry. The camera is the director's pencil. It should have the greatest possible mobility in order to record the most fleeting harmony of atmosphere. It is important that the mechanical factor should not stand between the spectator and the film." F.W. Murnau, Director Nasferatu __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

August 29th, 2003, 09:53 PM	#4
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	What do you mean "digitally fixed"? Those 2 movies have been watched in one form or another for over 80 years. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

August 29th, 2003, 10:14 PM	#6
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	I don't get your point? Nosferatu has been available on 8mm, super 8, 16mm, I'm sure 35mm, vhs, and now DVD. But that isn't the point of the post. It wasn't a digital vs. analog rant. It was simply a comparison of what makes those films stand-up. Was it their colour? Dolby 5.1 surround? No. It was the skill of an artist and tool with resolution high enough to make the moving pictures breath life. Like the end quote says, "The camera is the director's pencil" and this is the first affordable pencil ever that does not draw like a broken crayon. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

August 29th, 2003, 11:19 PM	#8
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Uh, yes. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

August 30th, 2003, 02:25 AM	#10
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Yes I am talking about those two 1920'ish features. They are a fantastic example of motion picture art. The cameras used to film them had sever defincencies in many areas especially colour and sound ;>) Those movies are some of the first examples of visual texture high enough to captivate an audience. And now finally we have a tool that delivers artistic resolution. Coupled with the level PC's and NLE's and such filmaking tools are at these days, it is a revolution! By the way I like your link. Check out http://www.universal-tao.com/master_chia.html he has some very cool books on internal energy. they have them local @ Banyan Books. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

August 29th, 2003, 08:04 PM	#2
Kevin A. Sturges Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 167	I believe you are right. The footage this camera takes will still hold up and be watchable 20 years from now. And that, succinctly is what makes it such a breakthrough product. No DV cam can make that claim. Low budget film makers now, finally for the first time, have an affordable tool that will enable them to capture, edit, and distribute on a consumer budget, and compete with the big budget players. This is a major breakthrough! Watch the revolution begin now. Has anyone thought about the possibility of MicroSoft WM9 set top DVD players coming out in the next few months? Think about it - you will have an entire aquisition process to cheaply create store and widely distribute true HD material. Did you know right now there is the reality of at least 5 set top Divx Mpeg4 capable players enjoying sales under the radar of the mass consumer? All it will take is a little push, and the right licsensing from MicroSoft, and we'll be there.

August 29th, 2003, 08:34 PM	#3
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Ken, that movie can be viewed today only because it has been digitally fixed. Film was the only motion type media available in those days. If that type of movie was shot today, they would most likely still use film, for its higher resolution, or at the least, the high-end HD stuff from Sony or Pana, or from that high-end Viper, I would think.

August 29th, 2003, 09:58 PM	#5
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Correct. But the film was cut and cut until little was left, and the film stock was in pretty bad shape. I suggest using the search function, and read through that massive thread about the German sci-fi masterpiece, "Metropolis."

August 29th, 2003, 10:56 PM	#7
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Ken, are you talking about the German sci-fi masterpiece called "Metropolis?"

August 30th, 2003, 12:01 AM	#9
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Okay, we're both talking apples. There have been a number of "fixes" or versions of this movie. The latest one came out about a year or so.

August 30th, 2003, 03:14 AM	#11
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Yes, Banyan is a great place for books in Vancouver. They also carry my baguazhang book. I just live at 3rd and Yew, so Banyan is nearby. I'll pop over sometime and check out that author.

September 2nd, 2003, 02:06 AM	#12
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	"The cameras used to film them had sevr defencies in many areas especially colour and sound ;>)" Uhh, yes, just like the hd10. Or any dv cam for that matter. And great films have been shot on dv cams (The Cruise, Julien Donkey Boy, Waking Life). At least two of the aforementioned films were shot on vx1000s. "Artistic resolution"? Psychobabble. Give me a break. Resolution has nothing to do with art. True artists use anything and everything in the world around them, reflecting it, seeing it for us for the first time, etc., getting acclaim and internationally released, or not. Make your movie, using the most appropriate tools available to you. Or don't. But don't think that more or less resolution is going to make or break your revolution. The world is a far more interesting place than that. __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

September 2nd, 2003, 02:17 AM	#13
Ken Hodson Trustee Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Vancouver BC Canada Posts: 1,315	Great art can be done with any camera. I never said otherwise. My point is, with this camera for the first time ever an affordable cam has the resolution to NOT stand in the way of an artist. No matter how great ones artistic vision, if its shot on DV, its gonna look like DV, crappy. Also the quote you clipped was ment to be a joke. Those camera had no colour or sound! I was just proving my point that great film is not reliant on just the camera. Odd that you would then accuse me of not knowing this? And if your really saying resolution plays no part in the artistic quality of the movie why do you use DV gear? Why not stay with VHS-C or 8mm? An artist always wants the best tool he can afford. Film is the pinacle tool for this art because? Yes its resolution. And this camera gets me the closest for a reasonable amount of money. __________________ Damnit Jim, I'm a film maker not a sysytems tech.

September 2nd, 2003, 08:20 AM	#15
Brad Hawkins Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Edmond, OK Posts: 38	Shawn, I really don't think that Waking Life is a good example of a DV film. True, it was captured in DV, but in the end it is an animated film. Every single frame of the film has been painted in post production. The DV camera was used simply because it was all they needed to begin the painting process. Brad