returning my hd1 at DVinfo.net

Joe Russ · July 14th, 2003, 09:20 PM

im returning the hd1.....and getting the hd10. originally i thought i was saving myself 250 dollars because it was just adding an xlr adapter. but good ol' jvc had to handicap the hd1 so that the point of its resolution is wasted unless you get the hd10. after seeing paul moggs footage i was convinced....if im spending 3000 i might as well spend 3200 for the image quality i thought i was getting in the first place.

Randall Morton · July 15th, 2003, 12:45 AM

I still do not understand why the image of the HD10 is supposedly better. I have seen a couple of posts that indicate it may be, but why is this. What is different about the HD10s image?

Joe Russ · July 15th, 2003, 01:44 AM

simply, over sharpening. i guess they wanted to give you incentive to buy the pro camera (and it worked). both cameras are nearly identical hardware wise, but after the image is captured from the ccd ont he hd1 a huge (im estimating 2-3 pixel radius) unsharp mask is applied which creates a horrible halo around edges and adds to compression artifacts......it just generally degrades the image. this isnt necesary at all, i guess they did it to justify the hd10s pro 'quality' even though both cameras are capable of the same image quality.

after that (which is the real important issue with me) the only other things are color bars, audio levels displayed, and an xlr mic adaptor. but since the price difference is 250 bux, if you are going to get one save yourself the headache (not the money) and bump up to the full size.

Randall Morton · July 15th, 2003, 09:02 AM

Has this oversharpening issue been verified by anyone else? I've seen clips from both cameras and they look very similar to me on my 8ft screen and I am very aware of edge enhancement when it is present. Is it possible that your camera was defective?

Randall Morton · July 15th, 2003, 11:10 AM

This is a link to some clips I downloaded that were taken with the HD1. Link comes from a post in the AVS forum. I do not see edge enhancement on these.
\
http://206.159.116.24/jvc.htm

Joe Russ · July 15th, 2003, 01:09 PM

i doubt my camera was defective, jvc themselves says the image on the hd10 has been "tuned".....which just means its not grossly sharpened.

look at my comparison between a still of my footage (left) and paul moggs (right)

http://www.letterstoyou.com/comparison.jpg

you can clearly see on the strap of the book bag a line from gross oversharpening....not present in the same kind of place where high contrast (what unsharp mask does) would be.

Joe Russ · July 15th, 2003, 01:22 PM

i just looked at the footage from the site you listed....the same problem is there....i just looked at the fountain sample...and its clear, look at the edges (especially in highlights), it doesnt mean anything to some one looking casually at the image. but the image quality means a great deal to me at this price. if its not clear ill make an example using this guys footage as well...but i think my example speaks for itself.

again, most people may never notice...but it screws up the quality of the image....in several ways (psychologically and compression-wise as well)

.....off to the post office i go to return this baby

Randall Morton · July 15th, 2003, 02:48 PM

Joe,
I can easily see the EE in your comparison pics. I can also see some in the fountain clip but it is mostly obvious on the very bright edges(almost overexposed). It is very bad in your sample but I can still see some in my other samples. You have convinced me. I cancelled my order for the HD1. Any ideas where to get a good price on an HD10?

Joe Russ · July 15th, 2003, 03:11 PM

yes. B&H has it for 3260 i believe. very reliable and good price (i payed 3000 for the hd1, so, its not much for the proper quality).

Heath McKnight · July 15th, 2003, 04:27 PM

It's a bit hard for me to judge, as one pic is inside, the other (HD10) is outside.

But, Joe, after three weeks, I've FINALLY got control of the image. Yeah, I wish it were easier, like the XL-1 (until I borrowed my friend's--I sold mine--and realized how easy the S/A knobs on the XL-1 were, but how I'd notice how quickly the image changes, not gradual like the HD10 or even a DVCPro, which I use at work).

heath

Randall Morton · July 16th, 2003, 04:26 PM

I ordered one from B&H today. I found a couple of other places for $2999 but they didn't appear to be as reputable. Also a 4 year warranty was just $150. I should have it Friday. Thanks for the help.

Heath McKnight · July 16th, 2003, 04:30 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Randall Morton : I ordered one from B&H today. I found a couple of other places for $2999 but they didn't appear to be as reputable. Also a 4 year warranty was just $150. I should have it Friday. Thanks for the help. -->>>

$150? That's cheap. is that through JVC?

heath

Joe Russ · July 16th, 2003, 04:46 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : It's a bit hard for me to judge, as one pic is inside, the other (HD10) is outside.

But, Joe, after three weeks, I've FINALLY got control of the image. Yeah, I wish it were easier, like the XL-1 (until I borrowed my friend's--I sold mine--and realized how easy the S/A knobs on the XL-1 were, but how I'd notice how quickly the image changes, not gradual like the HD10 or even a DVCPro, which I use at work).

heath -->>>

so what are you doing to control the image heath....i decided to try and control lighting (with NDs and lights) and set the shutter priority since thats critical for 24p conversion and for certain "effects".

Heath McKnight · July 16th, 2003, 04:59 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Russ : so what are you doing to control the image heath....i decided to try and control lighting (with NDs and lights) and set the shutter priority since thats critical for 24p conversion and for certain "effects". -->>>

I don't have any ND filters (yet), but what I have done, even without lights, I set up the camera on a tripod and hit the S/A button. I set the shutter to 1/60th and whatever looks good, F-Stop wise, then I hit the Exposure wheel/button and adjust more (usually I don't need to, I just set it to zero) and I hold down the Exposure wheel/button until the "L" shows up next to the +/- Zero.

Seems to work okay, though if I'm outside and the light changes, I need to adjust either a little (just the Exposure) or a lot (the S/A).

Shot the moon the other night for about one minute before the battery died. It was behind the clouds for a while (it disappeared as I was grabbing my camera--I had walked out of my apartment's gym when I saw it and ran home), then re-appeared and BAM, bye bye battery. Murphy's law, right? It was quite a sight with the clouds down in West Palm Beach, Florida. Like something in a horror film. Looks better than what I shot four years ago on my XL-1 for my first feature. As soon as I can figure out how to capture stuff and make jpegs/mpegs, I'll post that, my fireworks stuff and more.

heath

Randall Morton · July 17th, 2003, 07:57 AM

Joe I found the following info on JVCs website under a FAQ about the HD10: This is the info I was looking for and it backs up what you have said. Thanks.

11. What is different between the JY-HD10U (professional model) and the GR-HD1 (consumer model)?

The cameras are mostly similar, but there are a few differences which cater to professional needs. The professional version has 2 XLR (unbalanced) microphone connectors vs. a mini jack. Other differences include a color bar generator, audio level indicator in the viewfinder and a higher resolution viewfinder (180,000 vs. 113,000 pixels). There is some difference in picture quality, especially edge enhancement which has been balanced, shaped and reduced to match professional applications.

July 14th, 2003, 09:20 PM	#1
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	returning my hd1 im returning the hd1.....and getting the hd10. originally i thought i was saving myself 250 dollars because it was just adding an xlr adapter. but good ol' jvc had to handicap the hd1 so that the point of its resolution is wasted unless you get the hd10. after seeing paul moggs footage i was convinced....if im spending 3000 i might as well spend 3200 for the image quality i thought i was getting in the first place.

July 15th, 2003, 04:27 PM	#10
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	It's a bit hard for me to judge, as one pic is inside, the other (HD10) is outside. But, Joe, after three weeks, I've FINALLY got control of the image. Yeah, I wish it were easier, like the XL-1 (until I borrowed my friend's--I sold mine--and realized how easy the S/A knobs on the XL-1 were, but how I'd notice how quickly the image changes, not gradual like the HD10 or even a DVCPro, which I use at work). heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 16th, 2003, 04:30 PM	#12
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Randall Morton : I ordered one from B&H today. I found a couple of other places for $2999 but they didn't appear to be as reputable. Also a 4 year warranty was just $150. I should have it Friday. Thanks for the help. -->>> $150? That's cheap. is that through JVC? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 16th, 2003, 04:59 PM	#14
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Joe Russ : so what are you doing to control the image heath....i decided to try and control lighting (with NDs and lights) and set the shutter priority since thats critical for 24p conversion and for certain "effects". -->>> I don't have any ND filters (yet), but what I have done, even without lights, I set up the camera on a tripod and hit the S/A button. I set the shutter to 1/60th and whatever looks good, F-Stop wise, then I hit the Exposure wheel/button and adjust more (usually I don't need to, I just set it to zero) and I hold down the Exposure wheel/button until the "L" shows up next to the +/- Zero. Seems to work okay, though if I'm outside and the light changes, I need to adjust either a little (just the Exposure) or a lot (the S/A). Shot the moon the other night for about one minute before the battery died. It was behind the clouds for a while (it disappeared as I was grabbing my camera--I had walked out of my apartment's gym when I saw it and ran home), then re-appeared and BAM, bye bye battery. Murphy's law, right? It was quite a sight with the clouds down in West Palm Beach, Florida. Like something in a horror film. Looks better than what I shot four years ago on my XL-1 for my first feature. As soon as I can figure out how to capture stuff and make jpegs/mpegs, I'll post that, my fireworks stuff and more. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 15th, 2003, 12:45 AM	#2
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	I still do not understand why the image of the HD10 is supposedly better. I have seen a couple of posts that indicate it may be, but why is this. What is different about the HD10s image?

July 15th, 2003, 01:44 AM	#3
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	simply, over sharpening. i guess they wanted to give you incentive to buy the pro camera (and it worked). both cameras are nearly identical hardware wise, but after the image is captured from the ccd ont he hd1 a huge (im estimating 2-3 pixel radius) unsharp mask is applied which creates a horrible halo around edges and adds to compression artifacts......it just generally degrades the image. this isnt necesary at all, i guess they did it to justify the hd10s pro 'quality' even though both cameras are capable of the same image quality. after that (which is the real important issue with me) the only other things are color bars, audio levels displayed, and an xlr mic adaptor. but since the price difference is 250 bux, if you are going to get one save yourself the headache (not the money) and bump up to the full size.

July 15th, 2003, 09:02 AM	#4
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	Has this oversharpening issue been verified by anyone else? I've seen clips from both cameras and they look very similar to me on my 8ft screen and I am very aware of edge enhancement when it is present. Is it possible that your camera was defective?

July 15th, 2003, 11:10 AM	#5
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	This is a link to some clips I downloaded that were taken with the HD1. Link comes from a post in the AVS forum. I do not see edge enhancement on these. \ http://206.159.116.24/jvc.htm

July 15th, 2003, 01:09 PM	#6
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	i doubt my camera was defective, jvc themselves says the image on the hd10 has been "tuned".....which just means its not grossly sharpened. look at my comparison between a still of my footage (left) and paul moggs (right) http://www.letterstoyou.com/comparison.jpg you can clearly see on the strap of the book bag a line from gross oversharpening....not present in the same kind of place where high contrast (what unsharp mask does) would be.

July 15th, 2003, 01:22 PM	#7
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	i just looked at the footage from the site you listed....the same problem is there....i just looked at the fountain sample...and its clear, look at the edges (especially in highlights), it doesnt mean anything to some one looking casually at the image. but the image quality means a great deal to me at this price. if its not clear ill make an example using this guys footage as well...but i think my example speaks for itself. again, most people may never notice...but it screws up the quality of the image....in several ways (psychologically and compression-wise as well) .....off to the post office i go to return this baby

July 15th, 2003, 02:48 PM	#8
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	Joe, I can easily see the EE in your comparison pics. I can also see some in the fountain clip but it is mostly obvious on the very bright edges(almost overexposed). It is very bad in your sample but I can still see some in my other samples. You have convinced me. I cancelled my order for the HD1. Any ideas where to get a good price on an HD10?

July 15th, 2003, 03:11 PM	#9
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	yes. B&H has it for 3260 i believe. very reliable and good price (i payed 3000 for the hd1, so, its not much for the proper quality).

July 16th, 2003, 04:26 PM	#11
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	I ordered one from B&H today. I found a couple of other places for $2999 but they didn't appear to be as reputable. Also a 4 year warranty was just $150. I should have it Friday. Thanks for the help.

July 16th, 2003, 04:46 PM	#13
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : It's a bit hard for me to judge, as one pic is inside, the other (HD10) is outside. But, Joe, after three weeks, I've FINALLY got control of the image. Yeah, I wish it were easier, like the XL-1 (until I borrowed my friend's--I sold mine--and realized how easy the S/A knobs on the XL-1 were, but how I'd notice how quickly the image changes, not gradual like the HD10 or even a DVCPro, which I use at work). heath -->>> so what are you doing to control the image heath....i decided to try and control lighting (with NDs and lights) and set the shutter priority since thats critical for 24p conversion and for certain "effects".

July 17th, 2003, 07:57 AM	#15
Randall Morton Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 39	Joe I found the following info on JVCs website under a FAQ about the HD10: This is the info I was looking for and it backs up what you have said. Thanks. 11. What is different between the JY-HD10U (professional model) and the GR-HD1 (consumer model)? The cameras are mostly similar, but there are a few differences which cater to professional needs. The professional version has 2 XLR (unbalanced) microphone connectors vs. a mini jack. Other differences include a color bar generator, audio level indicator in the viewfinder and a higher resolution viewfinder (180,000 vs. 113,000 pixels). There is some difference in picture quality, especially edge enhancement which has been balanced, shaped and reduced to match professional applications.