canadian model comes with a matte box included at DVinfo.net

Eric Bilodeau · July 12th, 2003, 10:01 AM

I came to a demonstration by JVC Canada in Montreal earlier this week. They presented the JY-HD10u with a matte box wich is manufactured by a Vancouver based company wich name I can't remember. The camera comes standard with the matte box in Canada (I suppose it is possible to buy it separately...). Also the president of JVC Canada told me they are working with Digital film group on a way to transfer 30p from this camera to 35mm. The logic is simple (but will it work?...): upconversion to 1080/60i for transfer process.... If it has been shot in 30p it might not change anything but if it is not a true 30p, who knows. I am eager to see the results...

You can see the camera with the matte box at this adress:

http://www.fictis.net/HD10

Eric

Frank Granovski · July 12th, 2003, 04:19 PM

Yeah, but the only thing holding us back with going PAL is that we sell most of our electricity to the USA, otherwise we'd be on the 220 volts/50 cycle electrical system. Plus Canadians can't shake Seinfeld. Furthermore, the USA's largest importer of oil (and natural gas) is yours truly. Pretty soon it will be fresh water and fresh air and perhaps a few cheeks. Mind you, we sell everything in metric, but cheap. :-)

PS: where's my coffee?

Peter Moore · July 12th, 2003, 04:57 PM

I don't think converting to 60i is going to help the conversion process. The problem is in the diminsihed temporal information you have with a 30p image versus a true 60i image. There are 60 times per second that the image is caught, and so the 60i->24p algoirhtm takes advantage of this. Going to 60i you still have no more temporal resolution than you did at 30p.

Paul Mogg · July 12th, 2003, 05:15 PM

Hey, Womble will do 30-->24p conversion, so what's the problem?.
.....my little joke...but actually I must try it, who knows it might be a $120 Magic Bullet!!!

Steve Mullen · July 12th, 2003, 06:01 PM

Peter's right -- the temporal rez stays the same.

Moreover, months ago I talked with the founder of DFG and he said it "can't be done easily."

Now he may be looking at a business potential and re-thinking.

Assuming enough computer power, it might be possible to compute motion vectors for moving objects. (Hell, this data might be obtained directly by comparing B and P frames with I frames.) Then intelligently tweening needed information.

I think Twixter does this -- but it would be a big job for a 2 hour movie.

By the way I found out that Europe does not consider 720p to be HD although Austrailia considers 480p to be HD. (Now where does Rupert come from?)

There is no ITU standard for 720p. This may explain why the PD1 (HD1 in Europe) is only PAL and SD. At which point I've got to wonder how it will compete with the 3 chip DVX100P.

However -- 480p does look far better than DV. There is no interlace, aliasing, cross color, or cross luminance. NO ARTIFACTS! And, the rez is still quite high. In fact, apparent rez is much higher than DV because no interlace to rob vertical rez!

I'm going to shoot the skaters in the Park Sunday. Plan to shoot both HD and SD. I think we may have been way too focussed on HD. :)

Joe Russ · July 12th, 2003, 07:04 PM

ive been succesfully converting 30p to 24p with no problems using twixtor....if you can wait its worth it.....and the wait isnt terrible if you have a fast enough computer

Eric Bilodeau · July 12th, 2003, 07:16 PM

whrer can you find this twixtor?

Eric

Joe Russ · July 12th, 2003, 07:44 PM

http://www.revisionfx.com/rstwixtor.htm

its a plugin for after effects (and other programs like premiere, fcp, etc) by REvision. as with all great plugins it comes at a price. After Effects Plugin, Regular version $329.99.
After Effects Plugin, Pro version $595.00.

they make lots of other great plugins as well.

Eric Bilodeau · July 12th, 2003, 08:12 PM

Thanx ;)

Eric

Daymon Hoffman · July 13th, 2003, 01:29 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : .....By the way I found out that Europe does not consider 720p to be HD although Austrailia considers 480p to be HD. (Now where does Rupert come from?).....-->>>

Hmm just to clarify on this. Australian Pencil Pusher's considering 576p50 as HD. Australian People, Technologists, Hobbyists etc Dont consider 576anything HD. lol. So unfortunatly we get stuck with "fake" HD instead of real HD such as 720p or 1080i. :(

Chris Hurd · July 13th, 2003, 06:56 AM

Looks like it's a Cavision mattebox.

Rodger Marjama · July 13th, 2003, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Mullen : ...I think Twixter does this -- but it would be a big job for a 2 hour movie.

You'll have to convert the HD1U/HD10U footage to AVI if your going to use twixtor. It has a problem with this MPEG format from this camera. You can use the huffyuv codac and maintain the quality without loss and keep filesize about 1/2 uncompressed size.

-Rodger

David Warrilow · July 14th, 2003, 07:09 PM

Hi,

Forgive my ignorance on this issue but I just need clarification: the NTSC HD10 is a HD camera - but the PAL version is NOT a HD camera? How does that work?

Is this a symptom of the differing HD standards that countries adopt - or can the PAL version of this camera NOT shoot the same resolution as the NTSC version? That seems ridiculous.

Could someone be kind enough to clear this up for me?

Thanks,

best,
DW

Steve Mullen · July 14th, 2003, 07:55 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by David Warrilow : Hi,

Forgive my ignorance on this issue but I just need clarification: the NTSC HD10 is a HD camera - but the PAL version is NOT a HD camera? How does that work?
-->>>

Because Europe went digital -- meaning good old PAL encoded into relatively low bit-rate MPEG-2. You want high rez to fill a big screen. You get all the resolution you got with PAL. So the PD1's SD resolution is the same as it's PAL resolution.

So there simply is no HD to be had by the public. Since there is no HD there are no HDTVs. And with no HDTVs there isn't a big market for an HD camcorder.

David Warrilow · July 14th, 2003, 09:12 PM

Thanks for the reply Steve,

our broadcasters here in Australia are transmitting with "Available in widescreen Hi definition" subtitles at the start of some of thier programs. And there are Hi-Def TV's being sold here in the stores - clearly marked "HI Definintion TV" etc.

How does that all figure into the equation if the PAL cameras that will be released into the market place will only be SD?

Thanks again for your help.

best,

DW

July 12th, 2003, 10:01 AM	#1
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	canadian model comes with a matte box included I came to a demonstration by JVC Canada in Montreal earlier this week. They presented the JY-HD10u with a matte box wich is manufactured by a Vancouver based company wich name I can't remember. The camera comes standard with the matte box in Canada (I suppose it is possible to buy it separately...). Also the president of JVC Canada told me they are working with Digital film group on a way to transfer 30p from this camera to 35mm. The logic is simple (but will it work?...): upconversion to 1080/60i for transfer process.... If it has been shot in 30p it might not change anything but if it is not a true 30p, who knows. I am eager to see the results... You can see the camera with the matte box at this adress: http://www.fictis.net/HD10 Eric __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

July 12th, 2003, 05:15 PM	#4
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Hey, Womble will do 30-->24p conversion, so what's the problem?. .....my little joke...but actually I must try it, who knows it might be a $120 Magic Bullet!!! __________________ Paul

July 12th, 2003, 06:01 PM	#5
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Peter's right -- the temporal rez stays the same. Moreover, months ago I talked with the founder of DFG and he said it "can't be done easily." Now he may be looking at a business potential and re-thinking. Assuming enough computer power, it might be possible to compute motion vectors for moving objects. (Hell, this data might be obtained directly by comparing B and P frames with I frames.) Then intelligently tweening needed information. I think Twixter does this -- but it would be a big job for a 2 hour movie. By the way I found out that Europe does not consider 720p to be HD although Austrailia considers 480p to be HD. (Now where does Rupert come from?) There is no ITU standard for 720p. This may explain why the PD1 (HD1 in Europe) is only PAL and SD. At which point I've got to wonder how it will compete with the 3 chip DVX100P. However -- 480p does look far better than DV. There is no interlace, aliasing, cross color, or cross luminance. NO ARTIFACTS! And, the rez is still quite high. In fact, apparent rez is much higher than DV because no interlace to rob vertical rez! I'm going to shoot the skaters in the Park Sunday. Plan to shoot both HD and SD. I think we may have been way too focussed on HD. :) __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 12th, 2003, 07:16 PM	#7
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	whrer can you find this twixtor? Eric __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

July 12th, 2003, 08:12 PM	#9
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	Thanx ;) Eric __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

July 12th, 2003, 04:19 PM	#2
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Yeah, but the only thing holding us back with going PAL is that we sell most of our electricity to the USA, otherwise we'd be on the 220 volts/50 cycle electrical system. Plus Canadians can't shake Seinfeld. Furthermore, the USA's largest importer of oil (and natural gas) is yours truly. Pretty soon it will be fresh water and fresh air and perhaps a few cheeks. Mind you, we sell everything in metric, but cheap. :-) PS: where's my coffee?

July 12th, 2003, 04:57 PM	#3
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	I don't think converting to 60i is going to help the conversion process. The problem is in the diminsihed temporal information you have with a 30p image versus a true 60i image. There are 60 times per second that the image is caught, and so the 60i->24p algoirhtm takes advantage of this. Going to 60i you still have no more temporal resolution than you did at 30p.

July 12th, 2003, 07:04 PM	#6
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	ive been succesfully converting 30p to 24p with no problems using twixtor....if you can wait its worth it.....and the wait isnt terrible if you have a fast enough computer

July 12th, 2003, 07:44 PM	#8
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	http://www.revisionfx.com/rstwixtor.htm its a plugin for after effects (and other programs like premiere, fcp, etc) by REvision. as with all great plugins it comes at a price. After Effects Plugin, Regular version $329.99. After Effects Plugin, Pro version $595.00. they make lots of other great plugins as well.

July 13th, 2003, 01:29 AM	#10
Daymon Hoffman Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Australia Posts: 267	<<<-- Originally posted by Steve Mullen : .....By the way I found out that Europe does not consider 720p to be HD although Austrailia considers 480p to be HD. (Now where does Rupert come from?).....-->>> Hmm just to clarify on this. Australian Pencil Pusher's considering 576p50 as HD. Australian People, Technologists, Hobbyists etc Dont consider 576anything HD. lol. So unfortunatly we get stuck with "fake" HD instead of real HD such as 720p or 1080i. :( __________________ Welcome... to the real world!

July 13th, 2003, 06:56 AM	#11
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Looks like it's a Cavision mattebox. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 14th, 2003, 07:09 PM	#13
David Warrilow Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 106	Hi, Forgive my ignorance on this issue but I just need clarification: the NTSC HD10 is a HD camera - but the PAL version is NOT a HD camera? How does that work? Is this a symptom of the differing HD standards that countries adopt - or can the PAL version of this camera NOT shoot the same resolution as the NTSC version? That seems ridiculous. Could someone be kind enough to clear this up for me? Thanks, best, DW

July 14th, 2003, 07:55 PM	#14
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by David Warrilow : Hi, Forgive my ignorance on this issue but I just need clarification: the NTSC HD10 is a HD camera - but the PAL version is NOT a HD camera? How does that work? -->>> Because Europe went digital -- meaning good old PAL encoded into relatively low bit-rate MPEG-2. You want high rez to fill a big screen. You get all the resolution you got with PAL. So the PD1's SD resolution is the same as it's PAL resolution. So there simply is no HD to be had by the public. Since there is no HD there are no HDTVs. And with no HDTVs there isn't a big market for an HD camcorder. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 14th, 2003, 09:12 PM	#15
David Warrilow Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 106	Thanks for the reply Steve, our broadcasters here in Australia are transmitting with "Available in widescreen Hi definition" subtitles at the start of some of thier programs. And there are Hi-Def TV's being sold here in the stores - clearly marked "HI Definintion TV" etc. How does that all figure into the equation if the PAL cameras that will be released into the market place will only be SD? Thanks again for your help. best, DW