New HDV standard (consumer HDTV capture) at DVinfo.net

David Newman · July 4th, 2003, 01:15 PM

It looks like JVC has picked a winner with Sony and Canon backing their format choice.

http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2003/hdv.html

--

In standard list, does anyone else feel it is very short-sighted not to include a 24p format in the standards mix. I guess this is why Pansonic is not part of that press release, they seem to be alone in seeing the market value for 24p in the low-end pro market.

Vladimir Koifman · July 4th, 2003, 01:56 PM

Very interesting.
One major company absent on the supporters list is Panasonic. It's especialy suspicious considering their close relationship with JVC.

Chris Hurd · July 4th, 2003, 02:02 PM

See also http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=11605

JVC and Panasonic are both owned by Matsushita. The entire video marketplace is somewhat incestuously inbred.

Michael Pappas · July 4th, 2003, 03:14 PM

This press release is very good news indeed. This means Canon has their sites set as well Sony.Etc in adopting this standard and bringing HD Mpeg gear out too! Next year I believe is going to have big announcements. I for one will look forward to seeing new breed cameras from Canon. I'm sure their new HD camera, either a XL1 type or? Will play a big role. For one Canon has no upper divisions toes to worry about stepping on. Unlike Sony and Panasonic. They have to be careful to keep the product lines from crossing over. Canon does not, and I am only assuming will have a removable lens either single ccd or? HD camera with all the know how they have learned from the XL1 SD line to bring to this camera.

michael pappas

Peter Moore · July 4th, 2003, 03:20 PM

No 24p? This is infuriating. This is undoubtedly a conscious decision to turn away filmmakers and ensure that they use only the higher end equipment.

However, luckily this doesn't preclude a 24p camera much like the Panasonic one. By using 1080/60i to properly store frames and fields, a camera can still record 24p images using the the 1080/60i format. But clearly this is not what JVC & co. want.

Vladimir Koifman · July 4th, 2003, 03:32 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : For one Canon has no upper divisions toes to worry about stepping on. Unlike Sony and Panasonic.
-->>>

What about Sharp? It looks nobody is holding his breath to see what Sharp is cooking. They are like Canon not limited by upper divisions.

Eric Bilodeau · July 4th, 2003, 03:46 PM

Well seems like they finally took care to see what the impact of the JVC HD10 was. I believe there was already a possible standpoint, they were just waiting to see wether the camera would or not interrest people and filmmakers alike. As for the 24p problem, it is not really a problem since the DV protocol was not intended for 24p and yet there ws developpement for it. Also the fact that Matsushita is behind both JVC and Panasonic would tend to point to the fact that Panasonic did not involve on the first stream as they are most probably developping a 24p compatible model for later use and do not want it to be spoiled just right now. They investe a lot into 24p and JVC being their developpment company it all makes sense that JVC did not offer 24p in the first place.

Heath McKnight · July 4th, 2003, 04:01 PM

Actually, isn't it true the XL-1's chips are made by Panasonic? Hence the rumored 24P XL2, 18 months after the announcement of the DVX100?

heath

Joseph George · July 4th, 2003, 07:18 PM

This is what this standard means for filmmaking:

The most important is the inclusion of 720/25p with 19 Mbps stream. Varicam's, stream, when converted to 720/24p, becomes about 40 Mbps. Varicam compression is based on the Sony-developed DV format. MPEG2 is a lot more efficient compression. I'd say that the MPEG2 camcorder picture with 720/25p can be about as good as Varicam picture at 720/24p.

There is another point, and that is that the new HD standard is not meant only for consumer products, but will start replacing pro DV and the 4:2:2 50 Mbps formats soon.

Canon's problem is that it does not manufacture its own CCDs but buys them from Panasonic and Sony -- depending on a camera. JVC does not manufacture CCDs either.

Since a standard is established, there will soon be some company that will make high quality MPEG2 processors for these camcorders -- something a lot better than the NHK processors used in the HD10.

I think that by next CES and NAB there will be some excellent MPEG2 HD camcorders.

The Varicam will have to come down in price and the new Panasonic SDX900 will soon become obsolete.

I thought that by next NAB we'll see Blu-laser HD DVD camcorders. This announcement may push the Blu laser camcorders to 2004.

I am sure that Canon will come out with XL1s camcorder replacement that will have a new lens line. This new lens line will be usable if Canon decides to switch to the Blu-ray format.

The JVC started it. Canon is probably working on XL1s HD replacement, Sharp is probably working on an HD camcorder and Sony, as the inventor of DV, got naturally involved.

Panasonic is probably planning on Blu-ray based HD DVD camcorder and this new HDV format would mean low cost HD that would compete with Varicam.

Varicam was the least expensive camera good enough to make theatrical release films; the new format will give this ability to cameras costing 10x less.

Yang Wen · July 4th, 2003, 11:38 PM

Check out this Panasonic miniHD cam, apparently out already in Japan.

http://www.supervideo.com/2003h.htm

Heath McKnight · July 5th, 2003, 12:06 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : Check out this Panasonic miniHD cam, apparently out already in Japan.

http://www.supervideo.com/2003h.htm -->>>

Wild...wild, wild, wild. An underwater housing already? 3 1/4 inch ccds? (Below even an XL-1s.) 3.1 megapixels (the Pany Varicam is only 1 megapixel, the Cinealta is 2 megapixels). And it looks like a freaking handicam mini-dv consumer camera.

Forgive me if I'm doubting this a little bit.

I took a look at the site, they're based in Boynton Beach, FL. where I live (yeah, I put West Palm Beach, FL., only to look cool). I sent an email to find out the truth.

heath

Yang Wen · July 5th, 2003, 07:48 AM

Or this page also

http://www.supervideo.com/blackmamba.htm

Eric Bilodeau · July 5th, 2003, 09:01 AM

This looks a bit too good to be true but the camera does exist, it is the GS-100k (not the mx 7000) all the images taken by the guy are there so I figure this is the machine. There is metion that it uses a High Definition system. Not much details on the format though, what is the frame rates of the camera, mpeg4 for stream?. The guy sais that reportes followed the US troops during the war with that thing... interresting. This guy could sell a HD to my grandmother...

Check out this very interresting an revealing site (in japanese not much can be automatically translated though):

http://panasonic.jp/dvc/DIGICAM/gs100k/index.html

If anybody knows a better translation engine than Babelfish let me know...

Eric Bilodeau · July 5th, 2003, 09:11 AM

Also, after an intensive search, no mention of an MX-7000 camera on Panasonic site (Japanese). This is very puzzling. Why would the guy give it a different name? Looks like a fake to me...

Craig Jones · July 5th, 2003, 09:12 AM

I think you have to consider the source (supervideo).

There is no information on what makes the MX7000 "HD" or what its encoding is. There is a claim of 3.1 MP but that appears to be the still resolution. Who knows what the CCD res is since supervideo is not trustworthy.

I used the email to get more information but the reply included no information at all---not even how to order one! All I've gathered is that you have to buy it with a bunch of undesirable accessories as a kit.

The MX7000 may be interesting but its hard to say from chuck's site. If his info is to be believed, this camera is very small/lightweight, packs 8 times the raw pixel count of the JVC, has a 0 lux rating, provides roughly 10 times the DSP power of the JVC yet has significantly better battery life. My bogometer is pegged. JVC's main challenge is getting enough DSP power after all.

I suspect the camera has 3 1MP CCD's. It will be interesting to see what its HD modes are (if any) and how that data will be edited.

July 4th, 2003, 01:15 PM	#1
David Newman CTO, CineForm Inc. Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Cardiff-by-the-Sea, California Posts: 8,095	New HDV standard (consumer HDTV capture) It looks like JVC has picked a winner with Sony and Canon backing their format choice. http://www.jvc-victor.co.jp/english/press/2003/hdv.html -- In standard list, does anyone else feel it is very short-sighted not to include a 24p format in the standards mix. I guess this is why Pansonic is not part of that press release, they seem to be alone in seeing the market value for 24p in the low-end pro market.

July 4th, 2003, 02:02 PM	#3
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	See also http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...threadid=11605 JVC and Panasonic are both owned by Matsushita. The entire video marketplace is somewhat incestuously inbred. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

July 4th, 2003, 03:46 PM	#7
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	Well seems like they finally took care to see what the impact of the JVC HD10 was. I believe there was already a possible standpoint, they were just waiting to see wether the camera would or not interrest people and filmmakers alike. As for the 24p problem, it is not really a problem since the DV protocol was not intended for 24p and yet there ws developpement for it. Also the fact that Matsushita is behind both JVC and Panasonic would tend to point to the fact that Panasonic did not involve on the first stream as they are most probably developping a 24p compatible model for later use and do not want it to be spoiled just right now. They investe a lot into 24p and JVC being their developpment company it all makes sense that JVC did not offer 24p in the first place. __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

July 4th, 2003, 04:01 PM	#8
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Actually, isn't it true the XL-1's chips are made by Panasonic? Hence the rumored 24P XL2, 18 months after the announcement of the DVX100? heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 5th, 2003, 12:06 AM	#11
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	<<<-- Originally posted by Yang Wen : Check out this Panasonic miniHD cam, apparently out already in Japan. http://www.supervideo.com/2003h.htm -->>> Wild...wild, wild, wild. An underwater housing already? 3 1/4 inch ccds? (Below even an XL-1s.) 3.1 megapixels (the Pany Varicam is only 1 megapixel, the Cinealta is 2 megapixels). And it looks like a freaking handicam mini-dv consumer camera. Forgive me if I'm doubting this a little bit. I took a look at the site, they're based in Boynton Beach, FL. where I live (yeah, I put West Palm Beach, FL., only to look cool). I sent an email to find out the truth. heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 4th, 2003, 01:56 PM	#2
Vladimir Koifman Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 115	Very interesting. One major company absent on the supporters list is Panasonic. It's especialy suspicious considering their close relationship with JVC.

July 4th, 2003, 03:14 PM	#4
Michael Pappas Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: California Posts: 667	This press release is very good news indeed. This means Canon has their sites set as well Sony.Etc in adopting this standard and bringing HD Mpeg gear out too! Next year I believe is going to have big announcements. I for one will look forward to seeing new breed cameras from Canon. I'm sure their new HD camera, either a XL1 type or? Will play a big role. For one Canon has no upper divisions toes to worry about stepping on. Unlike Sony and Panasonic. They have to be careful to keep the product lines from crossing over. Canon does not, and I am only assuming will have a removable lens either single ccd or? HD camera with all the know how they have learned from the XL1 SD line to bring to this camera. michael pappas

July 4th, 2003, 03:20 PM	#5
Peter Moore Trustee Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Arlington VA Posts: 1,034	No 24p? This is infuriating. This is undoubtedly a conscious decision to turn away filmmakers and ensure that they use only the higher end equipment. However, luckily this doesn't preclude a 24p camera much like the Panasonic one. By using 1080/60i to properly store frames and fields, a camera can still record 24p images using the the 1080/60i format. But clearly this is not what JVC & co. want.

July 4th, 2003, 03:32 PM	#6
Vladimir Koifman Regular Crew Join Date: May 2003 Location: Israel Posts: 115	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : For one Canon has no upper divisions toes to worry about stepping on. Unlike Sony and Panasonic. -->>> What about Sharp? It looks nobody is holding his breath to see what Sharp is cooking. They are like Canon not limited by upper divisions.

July 4th, 2003, 07:18 PM	#9
Joseph George Permanently Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Los Angeles, California Posts: 265	This is what this standard means for filmmaking: The most important is the inclusion of 720/25p with 19 Mbps stream. Varicam's, stream, when converted to 720/24p, becomes about 40 Mbps. Varicam compression is based on the Sony-developed DV format. MPEG2 is a lot more efficient compression. I'd say that the MPEG2 camcorder picture with 720/25p can be about as good as Varicam picture at 720/24p. There is another point, and that is that the new HD standard is not meant only for consumer products, but will start replacing pro DV and the 4:2:2 50 Mbps formats soon. Canon's problem is that it does not manufacture its own CCDs but buys them from Panasonic and Sony -- depending on a camera. JVC does not manufacture CCDs either. Since a standard is established, there will soon be some company that will make high quality MPEG2 processors for these camcorders -- something a lot better than the NHK processors used in the HD10. I think that by next CES and NAB there will be some excellent MPEG2 HD camcorders. The Varicam will have to come down in price and the new Panasonic SDX900 will soon become obsolete. I thought that by next NAB we'll see Blu-laser HD DVD camcorders. This announcement may push the Blu laser camcorders to 2004. I am sure that Canon will come out with XL1s camcorder replacement that will have a new lens line. This new lens line will be usable if Canon decides to switch to the Blu-ray format. The JVC started it. Canon is probably working on XL1s HD replacement, Sharp is probably working on an HD camcorder and Sony, as the inventor of DV, got naturally involved. Panasonic is probably planning on Blu-ray based HD DVD camcorder and this new HDV format would mean low cost HD that would compete with Varicam. Varicam was the least expensive camera good enough to make theatrical release films; the new format will give this ability to cameras costing 10x less.

July 4th, 2003, 11:38 PM	#10
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Check out this Panasonic miniHD cam, apparently out already in Japan. http://www.supervideo.com/2003h.htm

July 5th, 2003, 07:48 AM	#12
Yang Wen Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 991	Or this page also http://www.supervideo.com/blackmamba.htm

July 5th, 2003, 09:01 AM	#13
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	This looks a bit too good to be true but the camera does exist, it is the GS-100k (not the mx 7000) all the images taken by the guy are there so I figure this is the machine. There is metion that it uses a High Definition system. Not much details on the format though, what is the frame rates of the camera, mpeg4 for stream?. The guy sais that reportes followed the US troops during the war with that thing... interresting. This guy could sell a HD to my grandmother... Check out this very interresting an revealing site (in japanese not much can be automatically translated though): http://panasonic.jp/dvc/DIGICAM/gs100k/index.html If anybody knows a better translation engine than Babelfish let me know... __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

July 5th, 2003, 09:11 AM	#14
Eric Bilodeau Major Player Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Chicoutimi, Canada Posts: 334	Also, after an intensive search, no mention of an MX-7000 camera on Panasonic site (Japanese). This is very puzzling. Why would the guy give it a different name? Looks like a fake to me... __________________ Eric Bilodeau video SFX,DOP ___________________ http://www.fictis.net info@fictis.net

July 5th, 2003, 09:12 AM	#15
Craig Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 105	I think you have to consider the source (supervideo). There is no information on what makes the MX7000 "HD" or what its encoding is. There is a claim of 3.1 MP but that appears to be the still resolution. Who knows what the CCD res is since supervideo is not trustworthy. I used the email to get more information but the reply included no information at all---not even how to order one! All I've gathered is that you have to buy it with a bunch of undesirable accessories as a kit. The MX7000 may be interesting but its hard to say from chuck's site. If his info is to be believed, this camera is very small/lightweight, packs 8 times the raw pixel count of the JVC, has a 0 lux rating, provides roughly 10 times the DSP power of the JVC yet has significantly better battery life. My bogometer is pegged. JVC's main challenge is getting enough DSP power after all. I suspect the camera has 3 1MP CCD's. It will be interesting to see what its HD modes are (if any) and how that data will be edited.