Owners Thread

Michael Hyun · July 7th, 2003, 12:31 PM

Craig,

Have you also noticed it's tendancy to stay at a particular shutter speed after you select it? It tends to drop from 1/100th to 1/60th pretty easily, but will stay in 1/60th for me relatively consistently (sans a huge drop in light). Once it drops to 1/30th it will stay there unless a light source is brighter than what 1/30th and f22 can handle.

Craig Jones · July 7th, 2003, 12:42 PM

Yes, exactly. Mine tends to keep its shutter and adjust its aperture. Once forced to another shutter speed, it tries to stick to that shutter speed until forced to change again. Sort of a shutter "hysteresis loop" when going from dark to light to dark again.

It also changes more easily at higher shutter speeds as you said, so it tends to be "stickiest" at 1/60 and 1/30. I didn't pay as close attention as you did but what you said sounds right.

Steve Mullen · July 7th, 2003, 12:55 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Hyun : Hey,

I own the HD1. My JVC has a tendancy to stay at 1/30th and swing between f2.0 to f22 with increasing amounts of light. If you increase the shutter speed to 1/60th it has a tendancy to stay at 1/60th, cycling between f2.0 to f22 unless light drops off for a moment in which case shutterspeed drops back down to 1/30th. This would mean the the shutter wants to stay as slow as possible (excluding 1/15). This AE behavior suits this cameras 30p mode better that what you found. --->

Your HD1 is doing exactly what it should. But I've found my HD10 doing the opposite. If I'm shooting and the sun becomes brighter -- the speed jumps to 1/250th and you can see the strobe increase. Perhaps there is a difference between HD1 and HD10! Or, maybe my always using an 8X ND outdoors alters the AE program.

Thank you for your post. More tests wo ND to follow.

<--- I think people are underestimating what increased resolution means in video. While they will GUSH and GUSH about subtle differences in color saturation of 3 chip cameras vs 1 chippers and the stunning differences between 24p vs 30p vs 60i, they dismiss what is quite revolutionary in handheld camcorders. HD is not a novelty. -->>>

I agree. The bashers sound like pre-adolesencts told about sex. They think it sounds ikkky! Then after they have their first taste!!!

Heath McKnight · July 7th, 2003, 01:04 PM

The one thing I haven't complained about is the image quality! That I dig.

What about the people I've shot with the HD10 who look "ghost-like?" How can I fix that.

Still waiting to hear back from Ken Freed (I called him for direct, one-on-one help).

heath

Michael Hyun · July 7th, 2003, 01:09 PM

Heath,

Are you talking about the ghosting that comes with the lower shutter speeds? Have you tried to increase shutter speed?

Joe Russ · July 7th, 2003, 02:06 PM

i think i will be returning my camera as well. i can deal with the lack of real manual controls, the dark image and even the over sharpening (i didnt get the "pro" model). but the lack of color fidelity ruins any gain in resolution and the chroma and luma noise is painful. being a student i cant afford to throw 3000 bucks down on something that isnt giving me 3000 dollars worth of performance. so i will be trading up for a dvx100...the lack of resolution is a minimal cost for better performance.

Heath McKnight · July 7th, 2003, 02:33 PM

Just talked on the phone with Ken Freed, very nice guy. He said FORGET the S/A button all together and do everything on the side with the exposure wheel. Adjust accordingly (it's still auto iris, but it has a bias to it) and then hold down the exposure "wheel" until you see an "L."

So far, the image is great, I just didn't like the lack of manual control. It worked! More tests tonight.

The "ghost" effects, he said, is something with eye perception. We'll see if there is validity to it.

As for my contact who said the JVC rep told my contact the camera was going back; well, Ken actually KNOWS him, and we're going to get to the bottom of it!

heath

Michael Hyun · July 7th, 2003, 02:40 PM

that's too bad joe,

I directly compared the dvx100, the vx2000 and the gl2 with the HD1 before I bought my camera.

I found that that individual variances in color of the 3 chippers were almost as great as a 3chipper vs. the HD1. A bit less saturated under close inspection but still subtle. The chroma noise pre post wasn't much worse either. I think the most noticable difference was the relative lack of exposure latitude and flexability but again, only under some lighting situations, and somewhat avoidable by carefully adjusting for and controlling exposure.

But observe the images on an HD screen and the difference jumps out at you. It is not subtle at all- like day and night. The others produce nice camcorder images. The HD1 produces a window into a different time and place with incredible depth and realism.

I belive I can live with the flaws of the HD1 to get that kind of picture. To tell you the truth I don't think you are "trading up" for anything.

But to each their own.

Good luck with your new camera.

Brian Gardner · July 7th, 2003, 02:42 PM

I agree.

Brian

Heath McKnight · July 7th, 2003, 02:51 PM

This camera rules, despite some ergonomics flaws, and so far, the tips Ken Freed gave me are working out with the iris. I'll do an extensive test. He also mentioned the serial number on the software (received some laughs when I mentioned it) and the problems we've been having with it. He said the "1" I keep putting in isn't a "1" or both a capital and lower case "I," but probably a capital or lower case "L." Sigh...

heath

Craig Jones · July 7th, 2003, 04:16 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Just talked on the phone with Ken Freed, very nice guy. He said FORGET the S/A button all together and do everything on the side with the exposure wheel. Adjust accordingly (it's still auto iris, but it has a bias to it) and then hold down the exposure "wheel" until you see an "L."

heath -->>>

This doesn't do anything on my HD1. You're saying that, while in full auto mode, if I press and hold the exposure control long enough I should get something other than the +/- 0 indicator?

Michael Hyun · July 7th, 2003, 04:23 PM

Craig,

holding the exposure wheel will lock the exposure setting at whatever point it was when you started holding it down.

There are 10 steps in either direction (don't know what this corresponds to in f stops), and given the aperature bias in the AE, I assume it would adjust the iris before the shutter.

btw- you need to be in manual mode before accessing this feature

Craig Jones · July 7th, 2003, 04:25 PM

Yes, that's how it works for me. Heath said you hold down the exposure wheel until you see an "L". I never see an "L". I get the "+/- 0" which indicates exposure lock but that's it. I'm curious now if there are functional differences between the HD1 and HD10.

Paul Mogg · July 7th, 2003, 04:29 PM

Heath, can you elaborate on what Ken told you to do with the exposure wheel? To me the most important thing is to be locked at 1/30th shuttter speed as I love that filmic look. But I've found that use of the EC wheel on the side is only available in the AE mode, which doesn't allow for locking the shutter.
On the ghosting you report, I haven't seen any of this, under what circumstances are you seeing it?

Thanks

Joe Russ · July 7th, 2003, 04:37 PM

yah, i have the hd1 and you can do the same thing, but you do lose control of shutter (which is still auto), and shutter is most important to me as well. you just press the exposure button so that the +0/-0 whatever appears on the left, and once its where you like, you hold in the exposure dial for a second or so and the L appears, but, the exposure is locked but the shutter speed is free to do whatever it pleases.....not good at all.

July 7th, 2003, 12:55 PM	#33
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Hyun : Hey, I own the HD1. My JVC has a tendancy to stay at 1/30th and swing between f2.0 to f22 with increasing amounts of light. If you increase the shutter speed to 1/60th it has a tendancy to stay at 1/60th, cycling between f2.0 to f22 unless light drops off for a moment in which case shutterspeed drops back down to 1/30th. This would mean the the shutter wants to stay as slow as possible (excluding 1/15). This AE behavior suits this cameras 30p mode better that what you found. ---> Your HD1 is doing exactly what it should. But I've found my HD10 doing the opposite. If I'm shooting and the sun becomes brighter -- the speed jumps to 1/250th and you can see the strobe increase. Perhaps there is a difference between HD1 and HD10! Or, maybe my always using an 8X ND outdoors alters the AE program. Thank you for your post. More tests wo ND to follow. <--- I think people are underestimating what increased resolution means in video. While they will GUSH and GUSH about subtle differences in color saturation of 3 chip cameras vs 1 chippers and the stunning differences between 24p vs 30p vs 60i, they dismiss what is quite revolutionary in handheld camcorders. HD is not a novelty. -->>> I agree. The bashers sound like pre-adolesencts told about sex. They think it sounds ikkky! Then after they have their first taste!!! __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

July 7th, 2003, 01:04 PM	#34
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	The one thing I haven't complained about is the image quality! That I dig. What about the people I've shot with the HD10 who look "ghost-like?" How can I fix that. Still waiting to hear back from Ken Freed (I called him for direct, one-on-one help). heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 7th, 2003, 02:33 PM	#37
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	Just talked on the phone with Ken Freed, very nice guy. He said FORGET the S/A button all together and do everything on the side with the exposure wheel. Adjust accordingly (it's still auto iris, but it has a bias to it) and then hold down the exposure "wheel" until you see an "L." So far, the image is great, I just didn't like the lack of manual control. It worked! More tests tonight. The "ghost" effects, he said, is something with eye perception. We'll see if there is validity to it. As for my contact who said the JVC rep told my contact the camera was going back; well, Ken actually KNOWS him, and we're going to get to the bottom of it! heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 7th, 2003, 02:51 PM	#40
Heath McKnight MPS Digital Studios Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Palm Beach County, Florida Posts: 8,531	This camera rules, despite some ergonomics flaws, and so far, the tips Ken Freed gave me are working out with the iris. I'll do an extensive test. He also mentioned the serial number on the software (received some laughs when I mentioned it) and the problems we've been having with it. He said the "1" I keep putting in isn't a "1" or both a capital and lower case "I," but probably a capital or lower case "L." Sigh... heath __________________ My Final Cut Pro X blog

July 7th, 2003, 04:29 PM	#44
Paul Mogg Major Player Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: San Francisco CA Posts: 386	Heath, can you elaborate on what Ken told you to do with the exposure wheel? To me the most important thing is to be locked at 1/30th shuttter speed as I love that filmic look. But I've found that use of the EC wheel on the side is only available in the AE mode, which doesn't allow for locking the shutter. On the ghosting you report, I haven't seen any of this, under what circumstances are you seeing it? Thanks __________________ Paul

July 7th, 2003, 12:31 PM	#31
Michael Hyun Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 46	Craig, Have you also noticed it's tendancy to stay at a particular shutter speed after you select it? It tends to drop from 1/100th to 1/60th pretty easily, but will stay in 1/60th for me relatively consistently (sans a huge drop in light). Once it drops to 1/30th it will stay there unless a light source is brighter than what 1/30th and f22 can handle.

July 7th, 2003, 12:42 PM	#32
Craig Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 105	Yes, exactly. Mine tends to keep its shutter and adjust its aperture. Once forced to another shutter speed, it tries to stick to that shutter speed until forced to change again. Sort of a shutter "hysteresis loop" when going from dark to light to dark again. It also changes more easily at higher shutter speeds as you said, so it tends to be "stickiest" at 1/60 and 1/30. I didn't pay as close attention as you did but what you said sounds right.

July 7th, 2003, 01:09 PM	#35
Michael Hyun Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 46	Heath, Are you talking about the ghosting that comes with the lower shutter speeds? Have you tried to increase shutter speed?

July 7th, 2003, 02:06 PM	#36
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	i think i will be returning my camera as well. i can deal with the lack of real manual controls, the dark image and even the over sharpening (i didnt get the "pro" model). but the lack of color fidelity ruins any gain in resolution and the chroma and luma noise is painful. being a student i cant afford to throw 3000 bucks down on something that isnt giving me 3000 dollars worth of performance. so i will be trading up for a dvx100...the lack of resolution is a minimal cost for better performance.

July 7th, 2003, 02:40 PM	#38
Michael Hyun Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 46	that's too bad joe, I directly compared the dvx100, the vx2000 and the gl2 with the HD1 before I bought my camera. I found that that individual variances in color of the 3 chippers were almost as great as a 3chipper vs. the HD1. A bit less saturated under close inspection but still subtle. The chroma noise pre post wasn't much worse either. I think the most noticable difference was the relative lack of exposure latitude and flexability but again, only under some lighting situations, and somewhat avoidable by carefully adjusting for and controlling exposure. But observe the images on an HD screen and the difference jumps out at you. It is not subtle at all- like day and night. The others produce nice camcorder images. The HD1 produces a window into a different time and place with incredible depth and realism. I belive I can live with the flaws of the HD1 to get that kind of picture. To tell you the truth I don't think you are "trading up" for anything. But to each their own. Good luck with your new camera.

July 7th, 2003, 02:42 PM	#39
Brian Gardner Tourist Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Northridge, CA Posts: 4	I agree. Brian

July 7th, 2003, 04:16 PM	#41
Craig Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 105	<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Just talked on the phone with Ken Freed, very nice guy. He said FORGET the S/A button all together and do everything on the side with the exposure wheel. Adjust accordingly (it's still auto iris, but it has a bias to it) and then hold down the exposure "wheel" until you see an "L." heath -->>> This doesn't do anything on my HD1. You're saying that, while in full auto mode, if I press and hold the exposure control long enough I should get something other than the +/- 0 indicator?

July 7th, 2003, 04:23 PM	#42
Michael Hyun Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Detroit Posts: 46	Craig, holding the exposure wheel will lock the exposure setting at whatever point it was when you started holding it down. There are 10 steps in either direction (don't know what this corresponds to in f stops), and given the aperature bias in the AE, I assume it would adjust the iris before the shutter. btw- you need to be in manual mode before accessing this feature

July 7th, 2003, 04:25 PM	#43
Craig Jones Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 105	Yes, that's how it works for me. Heath said you hold down the exposure wheel until you see an "L". I never see an "L". I get the "+/- 0" which indicates exposure lock but that's it. I'm curious now if there are functional differences between the HD1 and HD10.

July 7th, 2003, 04:37 PM	#45
Joe Russ Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: New York, NY Posts: 99	yah, i have the hd1 and you can do the same thing, but you do lose control of shutter (which is still auto), and shutter is most important to me as well. you just press the exposure button so that the +0/-0 whatever appears on the left, and once its where you like, you hold in the exposure dial for a second or so and the L appears, but, the exposure is locked but the shutter speed is free to do whatever it pleases.....not good at all.